H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads • Hacker News Board

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#231

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #223

yholio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like such a simple issue to fix: the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary, say above 150K. Doctors included, I see no reason to protect them from competition. Hop jobs at will but need to maintain within 85% of that level. If a company can't find workers, it should pay more up until a level that puts the competitiveness of the economy unde…

The problem is that there's two very different things achieved by the H1B process: a) Getting talented entry-level employees who graduate from US schools to stay in the US b) Getting talented experienced employees to move to the US The H1B is actually rather bad for b) due to the long processing time (6 months) during which a candidate cannot work in the US and high chance of not winning the lottery. Revamping the O1…

> Revamping the O1 visa makes more sense for that case.

Canada has a pretty sane skilled worker visa program that gives you points for academic achievement, proficiency in English, French, age and other factors. I see no reason the US couldn't have that.

Having said that, factors that would increase the wish to move to the US would be things like universal healthcare, a sane schooling system (with less inequality between school districts, easy access to higher education), better lablr laws, and overall social security. Without that, I don't think it's that much attractive.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#232

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:46 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #230

m0zg wrote: post #102

Posted this elsewhere, but as a former H1B here's what should be done to end abuse: 1. Award a fixed pool of H1Bs to qualified applicants with the highest wage in the offer (and monitor that this wage is in fact being paid). This should be easy to pass if your representatives in congress are in fact _your_ representatives. The president will sign this immediately, since he was the one who proposed it in the first pla…

> It should not be possible to hire foreign workers into entry level positions at all. And with that, you perhaps got rid of a (imo) very useful subset of potential future Americans: ones who went to college and graduate school in the US. This group went through it’s formative years in the United States. They are deeply imbibed in the culture and eventually start identifying with it. However, if they can’t get an ent…

> go back to where they came from

That's not really a nice thing to say.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#233

Post by mclightning » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #222

yholio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like such a simple issue to fix: the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary, say above 150K. Doctors included, I see no reason to protect them from competition. Hop jobs at will but need to maintain within 85% of that level. If a company can't find workers, it should pay more up until a level that puts the competitiveness of the economy unde…

> the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary Countries in Europe do precisely this but take it slightly further. Take Ireland[0] and Sweden[1], for prime examples. For those of you who don't want to read the links: The company has to have a minimum salary (oft above the standard cost of living) for the employee to obtain (and retain) the permit. (…

It is not really a specialist salary enforced in that law. I've been living in Sweden for 5 years now, as an immigrant, soon to be citizen.

The required salary quota, which is 15.000 swedish krona per month, is less than half of an average developer salary.

And that thing about union, is not as bureaucratic, as you make it sound. Company has to be part of a Union as a whole, to offer work-visa for immigrants. That's almost all there is to it. They dont really check each individual contract.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#234

Post by vowelless » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #232

vowelless wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should not be possible to hire foreign workers into entry level positions at all. And with that, you perhaps got rid of a (imo) very useful subset of potential future Americans: ones who went to college and graduate school in the US. This group went through it’s formative years in the United States. They are deeply imbibed in the culture and eventually start identifying with it. However, if they can’t get an ent…

> go back to where they came from That's not really a nice thing to say.

It’s been said to me plenty. I don’t mind it :)

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#235

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #153

School-Cotton wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...why? Whether you agree with it or not, “people should have the right to relocate to other countries for work” doesn’t seem like an outrageously offensive or trolling opinion. Why does it cause such an emotional reaction for you?

Because immigration is not a "right". It's a privilege. And if this privilege is afforded at all, it should be afforded in such a way as to not screw the citizens whom the government represents, through social contract and otherwise. Otherwise the citizens should elect the government that will represent their interests. I mean it's not rocket science, it's civics 101.

Well... This "immigration as a right" certainly didn't work well for native Americans, did it?

Now, seriously, don't you think America (as it is currently) gains a lot from its diversity? Since when did it abandon its "melting pot" culture?

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#236

Post by jazzyk » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #226

America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. There are 4x as many geniuses in China as in the US. This is not because they are superior genetically. This is simply because the population of China is 4x that of USA. If one in 1,000,000 people are geniuses, then China must have 4x more…

Legal and controlled immigration is absolutely beneficial for the US overall.

But targeting specific industries is unfair - the software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions (physicians, etc.), or business executives.

Since people in the trades like plumbers or electricians do not fall under the umbrella of "importing the best & brightest", their hourly rates have been going up steadily (for self-employed people).

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#237

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #125

an_cap wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I claim that severe discrimination (like banning a group of people from entry level positions) based on circumstances of birth is ethically dubious. I think that's why we don't entertain the idea of banning people from entry level work because they were born to black parents. Why doesn't it generalize to being born to Indian parents?

Because it’s intellecually dishonest and an argument based on the fallacy of appeal to extremes. There is obviously a difference between citizenship and race... the entire purpose of a government is to service its citizens. Unfortunately, we don’t live in a Star Trek utopia where there is free movement of all people. If one country were to allow this first, they’d just be harming themselves, which would be against th…

> Unfortunately, we don’t live in a Star Trek utopia where there is free movement of all people.

Maybe it's worth examining why would that be from time to time.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#238

Post by mehrdadn » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:53 PM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #212

m0zg wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because immigration is not a "right". It's a privilege. And if this privilege is afforded at all, it should be afforded in such a way as to not screw the citizens whom the government represents, through social contract and otherwise. Otherwise the citizens should elect the government that will represent their interests. I mean it's not rocket science, it's civics 101.

To push the idea furter, a lot of things we call “rights” are privileges in that sense. The basis of most of them is citizenship, which is basically people born in the right place or from the right parents. If you are born in Germany you have the ‘right’ to move anywhere in the EU. If you have Japanese parents you have the ‘right’ to work in Japan. The same way wealthy foreigner will have the means to buy these ‘righ…

I'm on my phone and can't check right now but I'm fairly confident there is global consensus (Geneva convention? or UN or similar) on when/how citizenship is a human right and that there is no such consensus on immigration being a right (modulo refugees), so no, these are not comparable.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#239

Post by testrr95 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:55 PM UTC

I will tell you what they do in India

In 2015, I got a call from Oracle India and interviews were arranged and I got hired into Oracle India. It was my first job change.

Before to that, I used to work as a contractor for one of the US companies via one of the services company in India.

Oracle offered me way less than what they are offering to other engineers in the same BU, for the same value generated.

Reason Oracle told me that, since I am coming from a lower salary band, Oracle is still giving a reasonable high pay hike. I argued back IN WRITING that still it is way less than ( lesser than 1/3) of Oracle generally pays.

Oracle said to me, Ok, we will raise your salary in the first pay review which happens. I asked clearly and concisely, what they mean by review, they said you will be in the band.

I left Oracle in 2018.

They never met their promise. Few of my financial aspirations were burned down, trauma different.

They = [ recruiter, director, vp, hr, ceo's office, legal ]

During all the time at Oracle, I knocked many doors, all of them simply said "Oracle never committed in writing, a phone call means there is a miscommunication ", hence I do not stand a case.

It is not Indian Director which simply reneged from the bargain, it was the US director, US legal team, which simply reneged.

Escalating to Safra's office also did not help.

Oracle is full with corrupt directors who simply trick Oracle's own rules to cheat the potential hires and trick them to get a lower paying offer.

This was done my director of SW dev in US but I was an India employee.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#240

Post by flowerlad » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #236

petilon wrote: post #226

America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. There are 4x as many geniuses in China as in the US. This is not because they are superior genetically. This is simply because the population of China is 4x that of USA. If one in 1,000,000 people are geniuses, then China must have 4x more…

Legal and controlled immigration is absolutely beneficial for the US overall. But targeting specific industries is unfair - the software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions (physicians, etc.), or business executives. Since people in the trades like plumbers or electricians do not fall under the umbrella of "importing the best & brightest", their hou…

>software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions

I don’t see software engineers suffering. Starting salary in FAANG conpanies is $120K to $250K. That’s better than doctors when you factor in years of education.