H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads • Hacker News Board

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#161

Post by alkibiades » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:44 AM UTC

an_cap wrote: post #104

mykowebhn wrote: post #8

Granted that H-1B visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified American citizens or permanent residents, but in all honesty are the Department of Labor's allegations really that surprising? In the Bay Area, qualified job candidates are so scarce that it's quite common for citizens/permanent-residents to change jobs frequently. H1-B candidates are attractive for companie…

Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of your skin color at birth but okay to discriminate on the basis of which side of a border you were born in? Surely, there would a lot of outrage in HN if someone said - "Granted that H1-Black visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified whites"?

because countries look out for their citizens. not everyone in the world. Why not ship the entire population of india and china and all of africa into the US? im sure they'd all like jobs and by your logic they are entitled to it over the citizens of the US.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#162

Post by fiblye » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:46 AM UTC

baby wrote: post #48

yholio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like such a simple issue to fix: the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary, say above 150K. Doctors included, I see no reason to protect them from competition. Hop jobs at will but need to maintain within 85% of that level. If a company can't find workers, it should pay more up until a level that puts the competitiveness of the economy unde…

This is such a one-sided point of view. Imagine that you're immigrating to a country, and after a few years you get fire, or you want to take a sabbatical, or you want to change industry for a lower paying job. Now under your rules you cannot do that. What do you do? You've created your life in the US, you have friends, perhaps a girlfriend, maybe even a house. Now you have to leave?

As an immigrant to another country, that's just how it is. It's a risk I accepted the day I decided to pack up and get on the plane.

I'll definitely be upset if things don't work out in my current home, but I'm prepared for the possibility. If anyone out there expects their new country to bend over backwards for them and try to keep them from returning to their old country, they're either not fit for the difficulties they'll inevitably face or they're incredibly wealthy.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#163

Post by maksimum » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:47 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #153

School-Cotton wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...why? Whether you agree with it or not, “people should have the right to relocate to other countries for work” doesn’t seem like an outrageously offensive or trolling opinion. Why does it cause such an emotional reaction for you?

Because immigration is not a "right". It's a privilege. And if this privilege is afforded at all, it should be afforded in such a way as to not screw the citizens whom the government represents, through social contract and otherwise. Otherwise the citizens should elect the government that will represent their interests. I mean it's not rocket science, it's civics 101.

Based on the US's history, relatively free immigration has made the country as a whole very successful. It's not obvious that citizens should want protectionist immigration policy.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#164

Post by geofft » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:49 AM UTC

an_cap wrote: post #140

SamReidHughes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

I suppose you also lament the destruction of masculine work culture engendered by allowing women in the workplace?

Leave him alone, he just wanta to secure the existence of his people...

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#165

Post by dennisgorelik » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:50 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #153

School-Cotton wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...why? Whether you agree with it or not, “people should have the right to relocate to other countries for work” doesn’t seem like an outrageously offensive or trolling opinion. Why does it cause such an emotional reaction for you?

Because immigration is not a "right". It's a privilege. And if this privilege is afforded at all, it should be afforded in such a way as to not screw the citizens whom the government represents, through social contract and otherwise. Otherwise the citizens should elect the government that will represent their interests. I mean it's not rocket science, it's civics 101.

Do you imply that working immigrants "screw the citizens"?

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#166

Post by fiblye » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:50 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #126

SamReidHughes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

Again, protectionism. If a billion people in India and a billion people in China are competing in global markets, my country's culture isn't going to survive anyway. How is Ottoman culture doing these days? Honestly, how is the British culture of even a century ago doing these days? How long did the Japanese culture so carefully preserved survive Matthew Perry's arrival? (Also as it happens I'm an American-born child…

If you dig in, a lot of cultures have roots going back centuries. People might be wearing tshirts and jeans everywhere you go, but the way they handle family matters and daily routines is very different.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#167

Post by an_cap » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:52 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #153

School-Cotton wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...why? Whether you agree with it or not, “people should have the right to relocate to other countries for work” doesn’t seem like an outrageously offensive or trolling opinion. Why does it cause such an emotional reaction for you?

Because immigration is not a "right". It's a privilege. And if this privilege is afforded at all, it should be afforded in such a way as to not screw the citizens whom the government represents, through social contract and otherwise. Otherwise the citizens should elect the government that will represent their interests. I mean it's not rocket science, it's civics 101.

At the risk of cementing your conviction of my troll status, I have some civics 101 questions for you. (I also have rocket science questions, but I'll leave that for another day.)

1. At a time when blacks were not citizens of the United States, many people argued that giving blacks basic freedoms would screw the whites that the government represented. I hope we all agree that according to basic human decency 101 that was not a compelling argument.

2. This is true even if it would indeed screw over whites by say pushing down their wages from, oh I don't know, absurdly high to only moderately high.

3. Which freedoms are privileges and which are rights? The freedom to not be a slave, a component of which was working for whomever you wanted, seems to be a right. The freedom to rent an apartment from a willing landlord irrespective of your skin color seems to be a right. But the freedom to work for Oracle for less money than you'd like if I was born in the wrong country seems not to be one. I'd appreciate a civics 101 lesson on why.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#168

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:56 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #126

SamReidHughes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

Again, protectionism. If a billion people in India and a billion people in China are competing in global markets, my country's culture isn't going to survive anyway. How is Ottoman culture doing these days? Honestly, how is the British culture of even a century ago doing these days? How long did the Japanese culture so carefully preserved survive Matthew Perry's arrival? (Also as it happens I'm an American-born child…

You're a carrier of American culture (at least in some superficial way) because you grew up surrounded by Americans. If 500 million people moved here, they would not grow up surrounded by Americans.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#169

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:58 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #164

an_cap wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you also lament the destruction of masculine work culture engendered by allowing women in the workplace?

Leave him alone, he just wanta to secure the existence of his people ...

> Leave him alone, he just wanta to secure the existence of his people...

Wow, you need to learn how to distinguish between stuff your brain tells you and reality.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#170

Post by maksimum » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 8:01 AM UTC

raz32dust wrote: post #156

loosescrews wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't companies in other locations pay competitively?

They pay competitively for their location. Pay is determined by demand and supply. If you sort H1Bs by pay, the places with highest cost of living will get all of the H1Bs. Perhaps a better idea is to do the same thing, but on pay that is normalized against a cost of living index.

I don't think CoL indeces are relevant because salaries are based on how much value a developer brings to the business.

Suppose you have two jobs: $140k in NYC, and $100k in Dallas. If only one company can get an H1B, IMO it should clearly be the NYC company.

The NYC job will yield higher personal income federal income taxes. Also the NYC job is delivering at least $40k more value to the business than the Dallas job. This additional value again translates to higher corporate federal income tax.

I'm not sure what benefit the federal government has by favoring the $100k job, even though normalized for CoL ($1.5 NYC=$1 Dallas according to one index) the Dallas job is "higher paying".