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H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

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Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#131

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

an_cap wrote: post #114
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you consider it morally acceptable for a country to prioritize the prosperity of its own citizens over that of non-citizens. I.e., whom does a country's government serve?

Why is it morally acceptable for a country to prioritize the prosperity of its own citizens, but not for whites to prioritize the prosperity of fellow whites?

You cannot change your skin color, you can change your citizenship though. And it's not just America, you'll run into these restrictions in every country, often times more strict.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#132

Post by an_cap »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #123
an_cap wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it morally acceptable for a country to prioritize the prosperity of its own citizens, but not for whites to prioritize the prosperity of fellow whites?

I'm having trouble understanding which level of abstraction you're trying to discuss. Are you arguing that two human attributes in particular , race and birthplace, should for some reason be subject to the same level of discrimination in hiring? Or are you asking a more abstract question? I.e., given any human attribute ${attrib}, what are the principles a government should use when deciding if ${attrib} is a legally…

I'm just engaging in common-sense ethical reasoning. It seems wrong to require that all whites employ a much higher bar for hiring blacks. And, I have the same intuition about requiring all Americans employ a much higher bar for hiring foreigners.

Also, I think there is a big difference between allowing discrimination (which is only wrong if you belong to a protected class) and requiring discrimination, which is pretty much always wrong.

So its one thing to argue about whether employers should be allowed to discriminate against foreigners (or blacks). There are some good arguments on both sides. But I don't think there are any good arguments in favor of requiring that employers discriminate against foreigners (or blacks).

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#133

Post by int_19h »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #131
an_cap wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it morally acceptable for a country to prioritize the prosperity of its own citizens, but not for whites to prioritize the prosperity of fellow whites?

You cannot change your skin color, you can change your citizenship though. And it's not just America, you'll run into these restrictions in every country, often times more strict.

> You cannot change your skin color, you can change your citizenship though.

Not on your own. You need to find a country willing to accept you as a citizen. For the vast majority of people in the world, the only countries that would accept them are those where they would be worse off. So the countries that do (successfully) prioritize prosperity of their citizens also effectively lock out most people from elsewhere. The trickle of immigration is just that, a trickle - it is deliberately constrained with various rules and requirements, and it would be a much bigger stream if anyone who wanted to change their citizenship could apply (even if you filtered out, say, people with criminal records and such).

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#134

Post by d--b »

What's everyone so angry about?

Having been through H1B, I think the system is designed fairly well. It's extremely hard to figure out whether a particular hire required a foreign worker. And, in doubt, the US in general always sides with what's easier for companies. So, in doubt, immigration will consider that there is more harm done if a company doesn't get the worker they need than if a US citizen's job is taken by a foreigner. And probably even more so in tech, where jobs are allegedly plenty.

As with everything some companies will exploit it, which is forbidden, but then they get outed, and then they get sanctions, and abuse is reduced...

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#135

Post by vowelless »

yholio wrote: post #14
mykowebhn wrote: post #8

Granted that H-1B visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified American citizens or permanent residents, but in all honesty are the Department of Labor's allegations really that surprising? In the Bay Area, qualified job candidates are so scarce that it's quite common for citizens/permanent-residents to change jobs frequently. H1-B candidates are attractive for companie…

Seems like such a simple issue to fix: the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary, say above 150K. Doctors included, I see no reason to protect them from competition. Hop jobs at will but need to maintain within 85% of that level. If a company can't find workers, it should pay more up until a level that puts the competitiveness of the economy unde…

When I was on an h1b, I was making around 60k in the middle of the country, working for an amazing startup where we were ramen profitable. My skill set was highly specialized for the job. However, I couldn’t be a founder due to my visa status and we couldn’t pay each other even basic salaries. But we did some pretty amazing stuff for DARPA, DOD, and eventually some commercial enterprises.

You would price out people like me and make it virtually impossible for me to become a citizen eventually. But maybe that is by design and I don’t mind that opinion. All countries have nativist subsets of society so it is just a normal, natural stance.

Historically, america has attracted the best minds. Historically. But maybe now the populace believes the natives need to be protected from outside competition so that they can improve. Fair enough.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#136

Post by an_cap »

diogenescynic wrote: post #125
an_cap wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I claim that severe discrimination (like banning a group of people from entry level positions) based on circumstances of birth is ethically dubious. I think that's why we don't entertain the idea of banning people from entry level work because they were born to black parents. Why doesn't it generalize to being born to Indian parents?

Because it’s intellecually dishonest and an argument based on the fallacy of appeal to extremes. There is obviously a difference between citizenship and race... the entire purpose of a government is to service its citizens. Unfortunately, we don’t live in a Star Trek utopia where there is free movement of all people. If one country were to allow this first, they’d just be harming themselves, which would be against th…

Two points.

1. I am on board with a government serving its citizens. That of course doesn't allow governments to murder foreigners at will. I humbly submit that it also doesn't allow governments to prevent a willing American employer from hiring a willing Indian employee.

2. Again, why is it okay to look out for your own citizens first, but not to look out for your fellow whites first? Your argument so far seems to be - because! Suppose I start an organization (we'll call it the KKK) whose whole purpose is to serve whites. And if the KKK then goes around preventing all white from hiring blacks, surely that wouldn't be okay.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#137

Post by an_cap »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #131
an_cap wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it morally acceptable for a country to prioritize the prosperity of its own citizens, but not for whites to prioritize the prosperity of fellow whites?

You cannot change your skin color, you can change your citizenship though. And it's not just America, you'll run into these restrictions in every country, often times more strict.

Actually, I suspect its easier to get a full-body skin graft than it is for a low-skilled third-worlder to get an American citizenship.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#138

Post by loosescrews »

enraged_camel wrote: post #130
1024core wrote: post #69

A simple solution to the H1B "cheap workers" problem is to sort applications by (descending) order of salary, and pick the top 65K as authorized by Congress.

And have basically all H1Bs go to Silicon Valley/Seattle/NYC tech companies? (You really should think things through before suggesting them as solutions, especially when the problems are complex.)

Why can't companies in other locations pay competitively?

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#139

Post by pramttl »

mykowebhn wrote: post #8

Granted that H-1B visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified American citizens or permanent residents, but in all honesty are the Department of Labor's allegations really that surprising? In the Bay Area, qualified job candidates are so scarce that it's quite common for citizens/permanent-residents to change jobs frequently. H1-B candidates are attractive for companie…

A talented (foreign) friend of mine had the opportunity to switch to a better, higher paid role but due to the effort involved, the risk and the pause in H1B premium processing just hung on to his current role.

The H1B program itself is not a problem and in-fact is a big positive contributor to the US economy; but it definitely has issues like the one you highlighted (e.g. harder for employees to switch jobs) that should be addressed by the government to make it more viable.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#140

Post by an_cap »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #103
geofft wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a simpler proposal: anyone from anywhere can come here and take any job. If you leave your job, voluntarily or not, you have 90 days (up from the current grace period of 60 and strict rule of 0) to find another job. If you've been here for a few years you can apply for citizenship, independent of your employer. The primary objection to this is crowding out the labor market, to which I'd say: protectionism does…

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

I suppose you also lament the destruction of masculine work culture engendered by allowing women in the workplace?
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