Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#331

Post by TulliusCicero » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

Car-dominant policies are also exclusionary, just for a different group. Being effectively required to drive is an enormous burden on the impoverished.

Also it sounds like a mobility scooter is kind of what you want?

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#332

Post by FiveSquared » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #174

benj111 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It drives the modern economic engine" Yeah kind of what I was thinking. I suppose if you could reliably separate car a business tool from car as personal transport. I fear you'd just get everyone setting up as 'builders' and 'delivery drivers' though. I also think that outside of dense city centres you'd run into competition and economy of scale issues. If you're only now within range of one shop for x, prices are l…

>If you're only now within range of one shop for x, prices are likely to increase in short order. And that shop will have less shoppers. This is one issue that the (usually upper middle class or better) car-free advocates completely ignore that really ticks me off. I don't want people who don't have much money to have to choose between spending that money somewhere local but overpriced and taking a bus across town to…

Truth, food deserts will grow without the car. To see what it is like, go visit your local ghetto and rural area.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#333

Post by kaybe » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #182

adrianN wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the Netherlands for example manage just fine with cargo bikes and public transport.

Holland is flat and the winters are mild. Try getting a cargo bike up a 200 climb in minus temperatures. It is not something I do every day.

Holland has a lot of wind though, that can be very annoying as well. (And somehow it will change direction during the day so it will always be against you..)

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#334

Post by kaybe » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

flurdy wrote: post #328

calcifer wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids. Here in the Netherlands people seem to have no problems doing exactly that on a bike. Is Oslo any significantly different than, say, Amsterdam? Last week we had all sorts of harsh whether (sub-zero temps, heavy rain, snow) during my morning commute, which didn't seem to affect bike traffic one bit. > Parents in Norway also spend a lot…

One thing I love about living on the south coast of England is that I can cycle to my train station all year round. All winter bar a one or two days midwinter when there is actually some real snow/ice. I don't even bother to put on my studded tires I have in my garage. When I did live in Oslo I did put on those studded tires for the colder months. But that was only for the late autumn and spring when there might be i…

I'm even more afraid to drive a car on those surfaces to be honest.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#335

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #331

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

Car-dominant policies are also exclusionary, just for a different group. Being effectively required to drive is an enormous burden on the impoverished. Also it sounds like a mobility scooter is kind of what you want?

Mobility scooters don't work so well in 3 inches of slushy snow (unless they make them with wheelchair sized wheels?) In any case, my area swings from -5f and lower on the cold winter days to 105f+ on the hot summer days, so anything that's not climate controlled is fairly unpleasant. We just hired in some contractors from the west cost, and we're predicted to have 12" of snow on Monday, a full day of sub-0f on Wednesday, and a -10f night the weekend after. They're quickly learning a lot about West Michigan weather :).

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#336

Post by bbrian » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #312

bbrian wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cars pay for roads, maintenance, highway patrol, etc. That's not accurate. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/05/debunking-the...

I must apologize for my lack of clarity. The intent of my statement was to say that "Cars should pay for ..." and "Public transit users should pay for ", not to imply that the users of these services cover their costs now. Cars are obviously subsidized by general tax revenue, and public transit is also subsidized by general tax revenue. Ideally general taxes would be reduced by the amount spent on these services, and…

My bad. I read it as "since cars pay... transit should pay too".

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#337

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #322

postscapes1 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My office is directly in view of all the handicap spots in a large commercial office buildings so watch this everyday. It is crazy how many people abuse the handicap parking permits. And then you see the people who really need it and would make a difference if they didn't get those very front spots taken up by these folks.

Please don’t be that guy. Manybhandixaps are not visually obvious.

Agreed. I have used scooters in stores on days when my knees are unbearably bad. You'd be amazed how many people will give an otherwise healthly looking, reasonably fit/thin 37 year old guy dirty looks for what they assume is a joy ride.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#338

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 10:55 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #210

unionemployee wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this work when our cities have been so heavily developed to favor the automobile? I'm for road users paying for the roads or access, but public transit is so lightly used in most of the US and there's so little existing infrastructure that it's at a severe disadvantage and can't take advantage network effects or economies of scale. Instead of a train near my house, there's an interstate highway. Our cities…

I think public transit would only be viable in dense urban cores. In other areas, if the city desires to provide transportation assistance, I think it's probably more efficient to provide other forms of transportation to the working poor (who are typically the primary users of public transit in midsized cities). Here in Grand Rapids, the busses are so lightly used that it would probably be cheaper for the city to han…

Can one of the people downvoting this into oblivion please explain? If a midsized city with little congestion could provide subsidized point-to-point transit for those who need it at a comparable cost to operating a bus system, what is the possible downside? This would be hugely beneficial to the people actually using the service, since they get all the time back that would have otherwise been spent waiting on transit services.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#339

Post by DoreenMichele » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 11:01 PM UTC

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day.

If you really want to see more people walk, then do more walking yourself as a form of basic transit.

I've lived without a car for more than a decade. Everywhere I go, people start walking more. As more people start walking, crime goes down. (See Jane Jacobs: "Eyes on the street" is the key to urban safety. This means pedestrians on the street.) Air pollution goes down. Plant life greens up. Locals start having less financial stress.

I have had the passing fancy of starting a "Pedestrian Ambassador" program or something. But, eh, I have enough half-baked projects going nowhere that don't pay squat. My life gets better when locals walk more.

If you want to see more people walking, be the change you wish to see. And watch it go viral.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#340

Post by gaius » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 11:06 PM UTC

gnopgnip wrote: post #327

danjayh wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'm going to argue for just the opposite: Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use (through gas and plate taxes), let users of public transit pay for the services and infrastructure they use (through ridership fees). Right now, public transit is heavily subsidized by income taxes and use taxes for cars (at least in my area). I think that if all transit users were forced to pay for their share o…

To say that public transit is heavily subsidized ignores that the alternative, building new roads, parking, bridges, and other infrastructure is even more expensive. And it ignores how much regular road use is subsidized.

In the UK fuel taxes raise £50Bn for the exchequer every year and the total transport budget is £25Bn. Maybe it’s different in the US but certainly here, the idea that cars are subsidised just isn’t factually true. Drivers pay for all forms of transportation then contribute as much again to e.g. the NHS.