Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#271

Post by estebank » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #116

kstenerud wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy. I write based on what I've observed.

Which European city centres are car free? Let's just think about capitals. London? Brussels? Paris? Berlin? Dublin? Lisbon? Bern? Rome? None of these places are car free. You can go on Google maps and see cars everywhere. So we know 'all' is nonsense for a start. And 'most' is looking pretty doubtful already.

It's possible that the GP is comparing against their experience in American cities. If that is the case, then yes, most European cities are "car free". I would qualify Amsterdam, for example, as "car free" even though it technically isn't, it's just not a city I would ever think of driving in because every other way of moving around, including walking is so much nicer and you see few cars compared to any place in the US. Many times when going to towns in the US I notice than myself and my wife are the only people walking on the sidewalks for considerable amounts of time.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#272

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

improbable22 wrote: post #258

gamegoblin wrote: post #181

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I broke my foot and ankle in several places in a rock climbing accident 1.5 years ago, and was put in a similar place to you (unable to stand for more than 20 minutes, unable to walk more than a few hundred yards, etc). This was a huge lifestyle impact to me -- before the injury, if it was less than a 30 minute walk, I almost always walked. If I wasn't in a hurry, up to 60 minutes. What helped me a lot was getting an…

Similar experience: I broke my leg, while I happened to be living both with a car, and in a building with underground parking. This really made staying independent possible, for the months it took before I could walk properly. Sure it was slower to drive to the supermarket & park underground there, instead of walking... but much quicker than waiting for someone else to have time to help. I agree that solutions other…

I was in Shanghai for work for about 3 weeks a few years back. For the first week, I tried to use mass transit, because everyone said it was the best way around (and in shanghai, their mass transit is absolutely world-class, the best of the best). It was absolute hell - a perfect description; I was in constant pain.

After the first week I broke down and just took cabs everywhere. Perfectly practical, but only when somebody else (in this case, my employer) is paying for it.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#273

Post by postscapes1 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

otachack wrote: post #172

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #149

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From the article > A few spots are left, converted into parking for disabled drivers or EV charging, and some streets are open for delivery trucks for a couple of hours in the morning. Emergency vehicles still have access. Nobody who has thought about this issue for a bit is suggesting that we ban cars like we banned chemical weapons. Simply that the number of cars can be cut by a factor of 5-10 easily, leaving behin…

Not to mention the abuse of handicap licenses in the states. I speak to this as witnessing an acquaintance borrowing a handicap permit from a family member and using it for themselves. This kind of behavior would have to be enforced more strictly.

My office is directly in view of all the handicap spots in a large commercial office buildings so watch this everyday. It is crazy how many people abuse the handicap parking permits.

And then you see the people who really need it and would make a difference if they didn't get those very front spots taken up by these folks.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#274

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #250

danjayh wrote: post #58

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I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

It's not unusual in America to find shopping centers where you have to drive, park your car, and then walk several hundred feet to actually enter the store, thanks to the enormous parking lot, because everybody has to park. So, I'm not exactly sure how much the car culture is actually working in your favor. The alternative (public transportation) means parking lots can be smaller and closer to the actual destination.

On bad days, I either avoid extremely large stores or wait until I get a good spot. On good days, I walk from whatever spot I get. Either way, it's less walking than I'd do to/from a transit station.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#275

Post by simonsarris » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

The number of elderly and disabled who are excluded by the automobile-only neighborhoods in the USA vastly outnumber the people who require an automobile to get around within a city center. The pro-con in helping disabled people isn't even close in how many people would be helped by anti-automobile policies.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#276

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #255

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

Do you need a two tonne steel box, or could you make due with an electric wheelchair?

Electric wheelchairs typically go 3-4 mph. They are not a replacement for point-to-point transit. My area also swings from -5f in the winter to +105f in the summer, so anything that's not climate controlled is quite unpleasant.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#277

Post by freyir » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #267

squidbot wrote: post #18

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The biggest issue with bikes and walking in SF (as well as Seattle) is the hills. Oslo is relatively flat, as are other very bike centered cities like Amsterdam. Mind you, the rise of electric bikes is helping a lot, but it seems like hilly cities would only be able to get rid of cars if they replaced them with better, efficient, clean public transit. And it doesn't have to be just buses. Seattle, where they exist, e…

Calling utter bullshot on this post as i have literally been a bike/pedestrian in SF for now going on a decade exclusively. In working in tech and knowing the city inside and out. This is flatly not an issue. Further, i used to live upper market at twin peaks - and taking the bus was not a problem other that the normal muni issues whoch this discussion is not about. Ive biked and walked and commuted literally every a…

I guess you don't live in Russian Hill, Nob Hill, Pac Heights, etc. And even if you, personally, are able to bike up those hills, the vast majority of residents would have a very tough time.

Plenty of SF is bikeable, but to say hills are a non-issue citywide is ridiculous.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#278

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

iamalexm wrote: post #234

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

I would honestly hope that this would facilitate a move to a more even distribution of businesses in neighborhoods. Perhaps making local deliveries cheaper and more feasible. Might make lighter transportation such as smaller, short range electric vehicles more of an option and cheaper as well.

This is probably one of the most insightful comments in this entire thread. Density isn't the problem - zoning is. Even in a suburban area, if there was a corner store, you could just take a golf cart, provided that you live someplace with a climate like the West Coast. I live in an area that swings from -5f in the winter to +105f in the summer, so for many months out of the year any transport without HVAC is not something you'd actually want to use.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#279

Post by graeme » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #173

graeme wrote: post #132

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The train network connected every city. It was incredibly dense.

Again, more than half of Americans do not live in a city. Being able to get from one city center to another solves none of the problems that having a car solves.

They connected every town too. You're being over literal. And have you never seen a Western movie?

Every tiny spot had a train station.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#280

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #270

anyfoo wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the city not put road grit onto the bike paths in Oslo? They certainly do in Munich.

Road grid does little when there's several cm of snow on top of the ice. It's a very slippery combination. During winter the sidewalks rarely get the snow removed. So unless there's dedicated bike lanes, which there are still rather few of, you'd have to bike in the middle of the road. Which, due to the topography, would mostly mean holding up the traffic big time. Here are some news articles from last winter which c…

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