Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#201

Post by jskopek » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

pi-rat wrote: post #183

umvi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose getting around quickly in car-free city centers? Electric scooter services? I was in NYC the other day, and it was like 1 am and we were several blocks northwest of Times' Square, it was freezing and raining and public transportation was on late night service which would have required 20+ minutes of waiting around shivering for a bus, or a long-ish walk to the nearest subway station and another lon…

Here's the best way to get around in the car free parts of Oslo: https://oslobysykkel.no/en Other than that, there's plenty of public transportation. And you don't even have to make the entire city center free of cars, i.e. make every 5th street available for cars (limited, like 1 open lane). As long as you can walk a couple of blocks you'll be able to grab a taxi.

I agree with your point in theory, but it’s somewhat ironic that the Oslo bike share you link to is closed for the season. There are ways to move around without cars, but it becomes far more challenging in winter climates

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#202

Post by caspervonb » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids

Kiwi is literally everywhere, in Oslo it's not going to be more than like two blocks to go grocery shopping.

> Most people who say raising kids in Norway without a car if fine usually haven't had any kids yet

Neither me or any of my school mates had access to cars growing up in the 90s, pretty sure kids these days can walk also. In the country-side I'd kinda agree with your points but in the city, especially Oslo everything is super accessible.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#203

Post by unionemployee » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #129

openbasic wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. So much this. Most supporters of anti-automobile policies think that everyone is a healthy young adult grabbing his latte on the way to his Scrum daily meeting. No responsibilities with dependents, such as children, elderly or disabled family members. No plantar fasciitis, lordosis, arthritis, etc. Grow up. Start seeing the world from the perspective of others.

My grandma never had a car in a major pedestrianized city. She lived independently until the age of 92. She took buses and walked everywhere. My other grandmother mostly walked around town. My parents have a car but mostly walk around town. Would I be right in thinking that you come from a car centric area where people don't walk and this lose their ability to get around at a younger age? Perhaps you have difficulty…

I often visit a pedestrian friendly small community in Queens. The number of very old people I see walking around is amazing. Tragically, the intersections are dangerous and people drive fast through the narrow streets. There's little traffic enforcement and, since Americans don't think about this stuff, nobody seems to care. Walkability is being developed away in the surrounding areas. It's so sad.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#204

Post by andys627 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

coding123 wrote: post #176

maxxxxx wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to the extreme is a good strategy to kill any debate. I am not sure if the GP intended this but I so often hear "Want to make changes to health care/ taxes/ others? Socialism! go to Venezuela!". Debate ended.

Lol definitely agree that this thread is mostly filled with extremeness. I don't think people should be advocating the removal of all cars/vehicles on the planet until there is a reasonable way to replace their functions (how do people, goods and large-scale construction projects get around in in normal and emergency situations). Similarly I don't think providing specific car free zones in small 1 mile blocks is the…

Agree. We've really put all our eggs in one basket in the USA... you NEED a car to reasonably participate in most parts of society. Sure public transit or biking are options, but they are much less efficient than driving. This is the problem. We've spent 75 years building this way, now when we want to take small steps towards reversing that, the steps are widely misunderstood. In a sense we've been extremely car oriented for 75 years, so that when anything except ultimate car domination is presented, it appears extreme.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#205

Post by eisa01 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

gilrim wrote: post #102

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

Not true. Lots of people bike in Oslo during the winter. While the numbers are lower in winter, saying that very few do is plainly wrong. Cargo bikes as well as trailers for kids are popular among families with children, see them all over the place. The city bike system are testing winter bikes and so far it been a success. The changes that are being implement take time, but overall the last few years the city have m…

Eyeballing some monthly graphs on [1] it seems to be 5-15% of peak traffic, I would call that few. Also, the city bikes don't operate during winter, which I can completely understand

[1] http://www.eco-public.com/ParcPublic/?id=3936#

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#206

Post by karmelapple » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #165

>...as in other cities that have converted some streets to pedestrian-only areas... These "pedestrian-only" zones certainly aren't unique to Oslo. See Drottninggatan[0] in Stockholm, Grafton[1] in Dublin, Strøget[2] in Köpenhamn (Copenhagen), Kärntner Strasse[3] in Vienna, ad infinitum... I'm nonplussed that this is in any way news-worthy; however, it seems to be an American website, so maybe that's why? [0] - https:…

Isn’t part of the interest here that Oslo made a shift, rather than always having had it this way?

This is starting to catch hold in cities of all sizes in the USA, too. Usually a couple roads in an already somewhat-popular commercial district will be shut down, either certain days or all the time, and many cities are seeing noticeable impacts on economic activity.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#207

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

crowdpleaser wrote: post #146

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

> I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles

I would find the risk unacceptable. Basically any flinch of anybody on the road can literally kill you. In a car, you are at least surrounded by the steel walls, so if somebody decides to do something stupid, in most cases, it's metal that gets smashed. In a motorcycle, the only thing between hunks of metal wizzing around and your flesh is a thin layer of leather. Not enough for me.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#208

Post by oth001 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

crowdpleaser wrote: post #146

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

Personal anecdote: a friend of mine driving a motorcycle was killed when another driver hit him

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#209

Post by stouset » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

crowdpleaser wrote: post #146

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

100% this.

Motorcycles are hands-down the fastest way to get anywhere in the city. This gap only widens when you consider that parking instantly becomes a non-issue.

We have perfect weather for it year-round. Lane filtering not only gets you to your destination faster, it's actually statistically safer. They're cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate, cheaper to insure, cheaper to fuel, and dramatically cheaper to park (at home, at work, on the street, and in terms of not worrying about parking tickets from street sweeping since you can often park off-street).

If do you need to carry more cargo than the bike will carry, you can always take a Lyft or Uber.

I get that a motorcycle isn't a workable option for some people. But it's certainly a better option than car ownership for many in the city, and I'm astonished that it's an option that so few people seem to consider given how perfectly-tailored this city is for it.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#210

Post by danjayh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

unionemployee wrote: post #185

danjayh wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'm going to argue for just the opposite: Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use (through gas and plate taxes), let users of public transit pay for the services and infrastructure they use (through ridership fees). Right now, public transit is heavily subsidized by income taxes and use taxes for cars (at least in my area). I think that if all transit users were forced to pay for their share o…

How would this work when our cities have been so heavily developed to favor the automobile? I'm for road users paying for the roads or access, but public transit is so lightly used in most of the US and there's so little existing infrastructure that it's at a severe disadvantage and can't take advantage network effects or economies of scale. Instead of a train near my house, there's an interstate highway. Our cities…

I think public transit would only be viable in dense urban cores. In other areas, if the city desires to provide transportation assistance, I think it's probably more efficient to provide other forms of transportation to the working poor (who are typically the primary users of public transit in midsized cities). Here in Grand Rapids, the busses are so lightly used that it would probably be cheaper for the city to hand out Uber or Lyft credits for the people that are now using the busses (and it'd provide a better user experience too).