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The pros and cons of placebo buttons

economist.com

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Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#101

Post by grkvlt »

NPMaxwell wrote: post #74

Pros: You save money & reduce jaywalking. Cons: you spread germs and further erode trust and respect for government. The saved money and jaywalking compliance are Pyrrhic victories as citizens sass officers and vote for tax-cutting politicians.

> you spread germs

Really? I don't think there would be any change or effect regarding microbes passed around the population if pedestrian crossing buttons did not exist. They just aren't a disease vector, or at the most optimistic are down in the statistical noise at a one in millions chance of having an effect.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#102

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

zimablue wrote: post #81
claudiawerner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the whole market based on things like this? The way supermarkets are organised, how advertising works at all, the government applying import tarrifs to dissuade you from buying from abroad, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with incentivizing the behaviour you want to see. In the end, every modern corporation does the exact same thing as what you claim nanny states do: try to make your desire align with…

Yeah and markets are notoriously immoral, so are manipulative bosses. We banned subliminal imaging remember. There's some blurred territory I totally agree, in between egregious deception and "expected, competitive" deception eg. make-up, presenting yourself well on a date, moderating your opinions, but this example isn't even close. Noone expects buttons to not work and there's no unavoidable competitive marketplace…

I agree with your sentiment, but I think the extreme of your tone might put some people off.

These buttons have bothered me for a long time because it just illustrates how short sited the thinking is in our government institutions.

This small lie may reduce jaywalking by 3%, in the short term.

But for the future generations growing up in a world where the government makes buttons that don't work, public trust will erode, conspiracy theories will seem more reasonable, and most importantly government employees will have a new standard to weigh their decisions against. If lying was permissible in this case for a slight benefit the maybe a slightly more egregious lie would be acceptable in a different situation.

And on a separate note, once you expect these buttons to be fake people stop pressing them. When you then encounter a "real" button you miss an entire cycle on the crosswalk because you have been trained to ignore the buttons, and this results in people getting absolutely furious.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#103

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

cannonedhamster wrote: post #63
Steltek wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Boston, we cross in front of cars that have a green light :). Although honestly, the cars aren't moving because there's too much traffic to go anywhere as box-blocking laws aren't enforced as it is in NYC.

You do not generally have right of way in a marked crosswalk if you have a signal. Anywhere that doesn't have a signal you have the right of way at all times within a marked crosswalk only, regardless of the color of light, outside of marked crosswalks pedestrians are not guaranteed right of way in MA. I used to be a Bostonian and am a current MA resident, though I work in Cambridge. I've played more chicken on Comm…

For NY, peds get right of way at all road intersections, marked or not.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#104

Post by justtopost »

squarefoot wrote: post #99

With all that AI fuss and widespread video surveillance, would it be that hard to mix the two, then count the number of cars and optimize traffic/pedestrian lights accordingly?

The number of frusturating failure modes and possible abuses simply boggles the mind.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#106

Post by Shorel »

zimablue wrote: post #62
_bxg1 wrote: post #15

This makes me so annoyed. I much prefer ones without buttons because I don't have to mess with it; when there is a button, I assume I have to go over and press it, but it sounds like in some cases I don't (for a while now I've suspected them to be pointless). But there's no way to tell the difference so I still have to everywhere.

This whole piece, and to be honest most of the comments here come from such a dark, authoritarian, arrogant perspective. "lying to the plebs modifies their behavior very slightly in a good way or is it in a bad way?" It's irrelevant, treat your fellow humans with some modicum of respect and dignity. Terry Pratchett's first rule of morality "don't treat people as if they're objects". Anyone caught casually deceiving p…

> It's irrelevant, treat your fellow humans with some modicum of respect and dignity. Terry Pratchett's first rule of morality "don't treat people as if they're objects".

If we want to get philosophical, just the existence of a police force treats people as an antagonist, and interaction between people and the police makes it clear that respect and dignity are out of the question. Nothing is more authoritarian and arrogant than the existence of the police.

But no one will argue in favor of dissolving the police, and the reason is very obvious.

My point is: people are not perfect, never has been, and never will. Acknowledging this is something basically everyone does when childhood ends and adolescence starts.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#107

Post by goodcanadian »

mikepurvis wrote: post #96
GeordiePowers wrote: post #57

In Toronto, most of the buttons have long done nothing to control the light cycle, and only trigger the audio crossing indicator. Lately they've been replacing the signs signs on these, with each now saying "Button for audible signal only". Good way to re-purpose the existing hardware. See here for a comparison of old vs. new https://i.imgur.com/a0FXI5c.png

In Kitchener (just west of Toronto), we have a bunch of intersections where there are two possible changes. For a car-triggered change (from the inductive loop in the pavement), the light just changes for a few seconds, to get the car through. If you push the beg button, you get the pedestrian change, where there's a momentary walk signal followed by a countdown. I get why this exists in terms of not having cars on t…

Interesting about the road sensor. In Vancouver (years ago, admittedly), I had no problem triggering the road sensor with my bike.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#108

Post by NPMaxwell »

grkvlt wrote: post #101
NPMaxwell wrote: post #74

Pros: You save money & reduce jaywalking. Cons: you spread germs and further erode trust and respect for government. The saved money and jaywalking compliance are Pyrrhic victories as citizens sass officers and vote for tax-cutting politicians.

> you spread germs Really? I don't think there would be any change or effect regarding microbes passed around the population if pedestrian crossing buttons did not exist. They just aren't a disease vector, or at the most optimistic are down in the statistical noise at a one in millions chance of having an effect.

Yeah. Given that coffee pots are the most virulent vector in the workplace, it seems unlikely that a button everyone presses with their fingers is not an important vector as well. The issue is getting germs on your fingertips, and then wiping your eyes or nose with those fingers.

If pump handles are a problem, I bet traffic buttons are as well.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#109

Post by doublepg23 »

Shorel wrote: post #106
zimablue wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole piece, and to be honest most of the comments here come from such a dark, authoritarian, arrogant perspective. "lying to the plebs modifies their behavior very slightly in a good way or is it in a bad way?" It's irrelevant, treat your fellow humans with some modicum of respect and dignity. Terry Pratchett's first rule of morality "don't treat people as if they're objects". Anyone caught casually deceiving p…

> It's irrelevant, treat your fellow humans with some modicum of respect and dignity. Terry Pratchett's first rule of morality "don't treat people as if they're objects". If we want to get philosophical, just the existence of a police force treats people as an antagonist, and interaction between people and the police makes it clear that respect and dignity are out of the question. Nothing is more authoritarian and ar…

If we are being philosophical, plenty of left-wing thinkers have advocated for police abolition.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#110

Post by marcosdumay »

it wrote: post #85

"people more readily obey a system which purports to heed their input". Sounds like democracy.

Democracy works by the very direct effect that almost always when anybody is powerful enough to make a coup and take the government, that somebody has been powerful enough to take the government by vote for a long time.

There are many indirect effects that may help, people feeling represented is one of them. But they are near to irrelevant when compared to that direct one.

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