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The pros and cons of placebo buttons

economist.com

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Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#81

Post by zimablue »

claudiawerner wrote: post #77
zimablue wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying to someone for their benefit is treating them as an object because you're not respecting their right to honesty or dignity, you're just treating them as an object that might or might not get run over and deceptive technology as just another input. You're optimizing them without their consent like they're some code you're trying to speed up. In the same way that PUAs is objectifying women because you're not resp…

Isn't the whole market based on things like this? The way supermarkets are organised, how advertising works at all, the government applying import tarrifs to dissuade you from buying from abroad, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with incentivizing the behaviour you want to see. In the end, every modern corporation does the exact same thing as what you claim nanny states do: try to make your desire align with…

Yeah and markets are notoriously immoral, so are manipulative bosses. We banned subliminal imaging remember.

There's some blurred territory I totally agree, in between egregious deception and "expected, competitive" deception eg. make-up, presenting yourself well on a date, moderating your opinions, but this example isn't even close. Noone expects buttons to not work and there's no unavoidable competitive marketplace in public infrastructure providers where there's some massive pressure to be immoral or die.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#82

Post by vhold »

carbocation wrote: post #2

I feel like there is a bit of ethical hysteresis here. If you have buttons that are designed to be placebo from the start, I find that unethical. If you have buttons that work, but have to be disabled due to a change in plans, that strikes me as less problematic (but they should still eventually be removed). So, how you get there matters.

Agreed, and having the button there allows for more flexibility in the future. I know some buttons that went from doing something, then nothing, then something again.

Like they now will make sound when its your turn to cross for people with impaired sight, but only if the button is pressed so people living nearby don't have loud crossing sounds going off all the time.

Also some now activate flashing lights surrounding the crosswalk to alert drivers.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#83

Post by r_klancer »

mxwsn wrote: post #52
r_klancer wrote: post #49

Worse yet, at least in Somerville and the general Boston area, I'm seeing touch-sensitive buttons instead of physical buttons that depress--with no haptic feedback; and only some of them play a recorded "Wait" when you press. I'm gradually training myself not to jam my finger painfully against them to be "sure" I pressed. If it turns out they're also placebos, I think I'm just going to give one a good kick next time…

In the same area; don't those have a visual light indicator that flashes when you press it?

There's some kind of light but I've never quite understood what the light means.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#84

Post by ConceptJunkie »

GeordiePowers wrote: post #57

In Toronto, most of the buttons have long done nothing to control the light cycle, and only trigger the audio crossing indicator. Lately they've been replacing the signs signs on these, with each now saying "Button for audible signal only". Good way to re-purpose the existing hardware. See here for a comparison of old vs. new https://i.imgur.com/a0FXI5c.png

I just used a button yesterday in Herndon, VA (D.C. suburbs) that had the audio crossing indicator, and actually announced the street name with a voice when the light changed. My friend commented that it would seem unlikely a blind person would be crossing there, but I have a blind friend who commutes downtown every day on the Metro.

I don't know if the button does anything else, or if it was just repurposed like you describe.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#86

Post by clairity »

_bxg1 wrote: post #15

This makes me so annoyed. I much prefer ones without buttons because I don't have to mess with it; when there is a button, I assume I have to go over and press it, but it sounds like in some cases I don't (for a while now I've suspected them to be pointless). But there's no way to tell the difference so I still have to everywhere.

what annoys me is that most of the walk buttons on street corners in LA actually need to be pushed to get the walk signal to come on, and people think they’re cool for not pushing the button now since “they don’t work”. so they end up either standing through two light cycles, or walking on a shortened cycle and making turning cars mad. just push the button!

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#87

Post by lunchladydoris »

weavie wrote: post #18

For my daughter quite often the highlight of our walk to the shops is that she gets to push the button at the traffic lights. Whether they do anything or not, she just loves pushing buttons.

In the UK, we have these little conical spinners on the bottom of the signal that start to turn when the light turns green. My son and I often make games out of them while we're walking around.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#88

Post by olyjohn »

r_klancer wrote: post #43
Balero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe jaywalking is illegal, and enforced in Seattle. When I'm in the UK I will normally not press the pedestrian button (unless its the type of pedestrian only crossing which only activate with the button, not on traffic lights on a junction) . But when I'm in the US, or a different country with jaywalking laws, I will stick to the rules much more rigidly. I also really enjoy the first time crossing a road when…

First time I visited Seattle, I crossed a wide-ish, but completely clear street against the light. When I got across, an homeless-looking guy came running up to tell me, "Don't do that, man! Fifty dollars, and they'll catch you!" I remember wondering how anyone ever got anywhere.

Weird. I've been downtown for 3 years now, and I've never seen or heard of anybody getting a jaywalking ticket. I pretty much use the New York style and cross the street when it's clear. I feel like I'm a competent enough adult to see when it's clear to go. However, I do watch the signals and give cars right-of-way when they have it.

What people do here is continue to cross after they lose right-of-way. This means cars have to sit through 3 or 4 lights before they can turn the corner. That's half the traffic problem with downtown Seattle.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#90

Post by it »

winrid wrote: post #89
it wrote: post #85

"people more readily obey a system which purports to heed their input". Sounds like democracy.

Care to clarify your point?

In a country with millions of voters, a single vote isn't likely to be what decides who gets elected. In the limit of infinite voters, casting a vote is a lot like pressing a placebo button. It's not directly useful for the voter, but it makes the voter more likely to accept the outcome.
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