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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#51

Post by coding123 »

recursive wrote: post #25
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. >We are slaves to the automobile in so many ways. >Sucks that I had to live in the time period with them. Focusing your hatred on inanimate man-made objects does not address the root of the problem (and is probably not healthy). You wouldn't blame crowbars for break-ins (I mean you might, but I hope you don't). The way forward is to develop superior a…

I think I appreciate what you're saying but I don't think the analogy works exactly. How much crowbar marketing do you see in a day?

Crowbars don't need marketing if it's the go-to tool for break ins. The analogy works because it would be like charging $8k for crowbars or having a crowbar property tax that is insanely expensive per year as a way to combat break ins. That doesn't work because people will find a way to break in without crowbars. People will find ways to buy gas at far less than a $1 a mile if you simply raised gas prices (i.e buy teslas). While a tesla would solve the (well let's say offset) the pollution problem, it would do nothing for the space, traffic, noise, safety, etc..

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#52

Post by tubbs »

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

> I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile in so many ways.

I get that you're speaking in anger and ignorance instead of reason, but this happening any time soon would spell so more problems than it would cause. Have you ever traveled outside of a population dense location?

The automobile will go by the wayside in its own time, just like the horse and buggy, but we're slaves to the automobile because (outside of population-dense areas) the automobile is an incredibly valuable tool. I expect big cities to follow Oslo's direction, and while the time passes, cars will become more efficient and quieter.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#53

Post by so33 »

umvi wrote: post #26
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

How do you propose getting around quickly in car-free city centers? Electric scooter services? I was in NYC the other day, and it was like 1 am and we were several blocks northwest of Times' Square, it was freezing and raining and public transportation was on late night service which would have required 20+ minutes of waiting around shivering for a bus, or a long-ish walk to the nearest subway station and another lon…

Most city centers that go "car-free", especially in Western Europe, only do so for a few blocks. Imagine the entire area around Times Square becoming pedestrianized.

And yes, as much as they seem to clutter city streets, electric scooters and the like are seemingly becoming a viable last-mile transportation option.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#54

Post by afiori »

afiori wrote: post #47
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. >We are slaves to the automobile in so many ways. >Sucks that I had to live in the time period with them. Focusing your hatred on inanimate man-made objects does not address the root of the problem (and is probably not healthy). You wouldn't blame crowbars for break-ins (I mean you might, but I hope you don't). The way forward is to develop superior a…

English is not my mother tongue, but I think you are focusing too much on words: My hatred for the automobile grows every day -> My hatred for how pervasive automobile are in cities and for how they damage city planning grows every day. There, now GP hates a trend in society. For the second part: this is essentially choosing how free you want markets to be (and how much of society you want to be a market). In my opin…

Just for clarification here is a nice ted talk about cities and walkability

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL5Nud8d7w

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#55

Post by eigenvector »

umvi wrote: post #26
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

How do you propose getting around quickly in car-free city centers? Electric scooter services? I was in NYC the other day, and it was like 1 am and we were several blocks northwest of Times' Square, it was freezing and raining and public transportation was on late night service which would have required 20+ minutes of waiting around shivering for a bus, or a long-ish walk to the nearest subway station and another lon…

Your question presupposes the poor transit service you experienced in NYC (greatly reduced late night schedule) which which is no doubt a function of budget constraints.

There is a mode of point-to-point private-vehicle transport that is quite fast at dense urban scales: bike share. Oslo has it as do many/most European city centres.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#56

Post by themagician »

leesec wrote: post #41
rootusrootus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could get on board with $1/mile. I bet it would really ease up congestion on the roads and my commute would be more pleasant.

Ah yes, only the rich should be able to drive!

This is actually not such a bad idea. If only the rich can drive then only the rich can commute. The city itself then becomes a haven for the middle class.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#57

Post by ip26 »

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I want it too. Unfortunately we are many decades away in the USA, at minimum. I used to be more optimistic, but I took a trip to southern Europe, with the narrows streets, busses, subways, trains, tiny cars, and everything. It was great, traveled thousands of miles and never got in a car- but it was a dash of cold water on how big the gap is. Fundamental things like the width of our roads & land used for parking practically double the size of towns, making walking and biking far less competitive right out the gate.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#58

Post by danjayh »

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and hips into a painful state (and the thought of riding across town standing on a scooter, frankly, horrifies me).

Cars and the point-to-point transit that they offer are a GODSEND for me and many other people who are somewhat mobility restricted, but not so bad that we need wheelchairs or crutches. They enable me to live a very normal life that would be impossible in a heavily pedestrian optimized environment. The fact that you don't even consider some of the alternatives as viable - automated shared cars, electric cars, strong hybrids ... all of which solve the problems you identified (wasted space on parking, pollution, etc.) leads me to believe that you actually just hate cars, and not any of the (solvable) problems that are caused by their current embodiment.

Consider that everyone's circumstances are not the same as yours. Have some compassion for your fellow humans.

EDIT:

To those who are saying that we'll still allow those with disabilities to have cars: many states require that you be able to walk less then 200 feet to get a disabled plate. On most days, I can walk at least 500 ... so by almost all standards, I do not qualify. However, walking 5-600 feet doesn't get you far enough to survive without a car. If the world were to go this route, we would have to reconsider what constitutes 'disabled'.

Another thought that surfaces is that with my 36-37" inseam (I wear 36" pants because that's as big as they sell, but they're really still too short), I do not fit in most public transit, and most cars. Thankfully, because cars are privately owned, I can pick from the 2 or 3 models that I actually fit in. A public transit world is a world that marginalizes peoples who are in the last 5-10% in terms of height/weight.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#60

Post by afiori »

coding123 wrote: post #51
recursive wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I appreciate what you're saying but I don't think the analogy works exactly. How much crowbar marketing do you see in a day?

Crowbars don't need marketing if it's the go-to tool for break ins. The analogy works because it would be like charging $8k for crowbars or having a crowbar property tax that is insanely expensive per year as a way to combat break ins. That doesn't work because people will find a way to break in without crowbars. People will find ways to buy gas at far less than a $1 a mile if you simply raised gas prices (i.e buy te…

wait, that is not the point...

crowbars have legitimate uses (the fact that they look like they are designed to feel scary and dangerous does not change that). Should there exist special crowbar licences?

> People will find ways to buy gas at far less than a $1 a mile if you simply raised gas prices (i.e buy teslas)

gilets jaunes disagree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement

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