US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#261

Post by skh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #238

skh wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The members of the Coast Guard were not conscripted. I don't know if that changes anything for you. But the salient facts are the Coast Guardsmen are not being paid and are not legally allowed to quit. So, according to your previous statement you agree that slavery is an appropriate word in this case. Also, one must contend with the fact that while conscription is not illegal they were paid for their services.

The same concept applies - "national security requires you, a member of the armed forces, to serve, whether you like it or not". I think it's a travesty that the Coast Guard isn't being paid right now, but it appears clear that the courts don't consider such a thing to be slavery in this particular case.

Are you retracting your original statement:

...it'd be slavery if they couldn't quit.

Coast Guardsmen are not being paid and are not allowed to quit. Therefore, according to your statement you think it is slavery.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#262

Post by jcranmer » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

clarkevans wrote: post #128

awinder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the longest shutdown ever, so we're kinda past the "reasonable expectation" line when you're in uncharted historical waters...

In many western countries, when a government can't form a working coalition or agree on a budget, new elections are called.

Tell that to the Belgians, who took 541 days to form a government.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#263

Post by roywiggins » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

clarkevans wrote: post #128

awinder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the longest shutdown ever, so we're kinda past the "reasonable expectation" line when you're in uncharted historical waters...

In many western countries, when a government can't form a working coalition or agree on a budget, new elections are called.

American shutdowns were invented when someone realized that the Antideficiency Act probably prevents the government spending money if Congress failed to pass a budget. We could, if we wanted, amend that act to provide for an automatic continuance of funding, but we haven't.

Deadlocks like this are definitely a feature of our system that Westminster-style systems resolve differently, but shutdowns are an artifact of an old law more than the constitutional organization.

(ditto the "debt ceiling", which only exists because of a stupid statute)

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#264

Post by growse » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

rhexs wrote: post #216

bouncing wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid, my dad was deciding between two engineering jobs; one for the US Department of Commerce and another in the private sector for a big aerospace contractor. The private sector one paid more, I remember, but my mother brought up to my dad something interesting: You're less likely to get laid off, and you'll always have more job security, with the stable paycheck provided by a government job. It's weird…

Holy hyperbole. Call me when layoffs start happening, back-pay isn't actually paid, the pension and generous vacation schedule goes away, etc. If these jobs were so terrible the employees would be clamoring to leave. Instead, the employees realize the benefits are worth it and are still trying to stay. Why are these public jobs considered "god-given rights"? I work in the private sector. If I don't get paid, I have t…

Ah yes, all of those federal air traffic controllers that should just go and work in the lucrative private air traffic control industry.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#265

Post by base698 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

That may be true but a lot of ATC workers do better than grunt software engineers. Five year experience can make $180K+.

It's hard to imagine not having savings if you make that much. It's possible of course just harder than the general population.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#266

Post by akhilcacharya » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

opwieurposiu wrote: post #176

pc86 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ATC is going to be as important economically and for public safety as police and military. You literally cannot fly commercial flights without ATC. They issue the flight plans, provide the routing, provide clearances for every taxi movement on the ground and every landing and takeoff for every commercial flight in the country. So what I mean is that whatever argument is made to make it illegal for police to strike (a…

This is just wrong. Commercial flights fly all the time without ATC. The majority of airports in the USA are uncontrolled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-towered_airport

Commercial airliners do not take off in non-towered airports.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#267

Post by nemothekid » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #212

nemothekid wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is all about appearance. I don't think the democrats should cave because this is a terrible precedent that far outstrips "appearance". It feels like a perversion of checks and balances where, because on side doesn't get what they want, they shut down the entire government until the other side caves. I won't be a fan of future presidents shutting down the government every time they can't come to a bipartisan ag…

Sure, but it also means that your position is that our government should be shut down and people should be unable to feed their families to prevent giving the opposition a mostly meaningless amount of money to build a useless thing that pales in comparison to how much we've blown on the F-35 (literally like 1% of the cost), a largely useless airplane. Which is to say, one party is certainly responsible for picking th…

Is your point that one side should cave because the numbers are meaningless? If so, I don't agree - they aren't meaningless. No one should be able to hold the American people hostage in order to get what they want - it not democratic. You shouldn't be allowed to undermine democracy by using threatening Americans as hostage - fullstop. Your suggestion is to just cave whenever one side threatens a shutdown is unacceptable

They are acting like children. If your son relentlessly bullied your other baby and in order for your baby to stop crying your son said "give me $5" (a meaningless amount to most adults) - the solution wouldn't be to give him $5 and teach him that whenever he wants money he just has to threaten throw the baby down the stairs.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#268

Post by atonse » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #93

At the risk of introducing a political topic into this supposedly apolitical subject, why shouldn't any president simply make demands and then shut down the government until his/her political opponents cave? Seemingly this strategy will not work ever again for either party if proper steps are taken. It seems like a terrible abuse of executive power.

You don't need the president to reopen the government. The spending bill has to be approved by the president. He has 10 days to do so. But if he rejects it, congress can override his decision with a 2/3 vote.

So technically the processes are there for this to never happen. The problem is that the process relies on people not having malevolent intentions.

But the senate majority leader, and other spineless Republicans afraid of angering Trump's base, are exactly that set of malevolent actors that aren't willing to put country over themselves.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#269

Post by CPLX » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

robbick wrote: post #213

clarkevans wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many western countries, when a government can't form a working coalition or agree on a budget, new elections are called.

AFAIK - no other western country has these budget limits, if a budget doesn't pass then you continue to work from the old budget, no lack of pay etc

Interestingly that’s how the US worked too until the Carter Administration, and the decision to do it the current way is controversial. It seems like there might actually be nothing stopping us from doing it the same way right now.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#270

Post by detaro » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

butterfi wrote: post #150

I don't understand why congress still gets paid.

I believe the idea is that it if congress members could be compelled to accept something they disagree with to end their own personal finance issues, it would cause an inbalance benefiting the richer/better-backed members.