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Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

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Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#21

Post by ljm »

linsistine wrote: post #4
Rainymood wrote: post #2

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

There's an interesting metaphysical discussion here, but in the context of the wider conversation the focus really has to be on spirituality (as opposed to religiousness).

When you're on that level you're no longer restricted to the idea of a creator and their creation.

Tantra, for example, says that god is within us, we are the divine. At deeper levels it goes on to say we are all composed of the same matter that exists in all the universe, so surely we are made of the universe. So, divinity. We are also the creators of our own destiny to some extent, through our beliefs and our actions and our mindset.

Does that mean there's a relationship between creator and created, or might we also be a consequence of an unexpected and serendipitous emergent process, like evolution?

This doesn't answer the question of how or why all of this exists, but once you take religion out of the picture you can start to look at the underlying theories and all of the various concepts we've developed over the millennia.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#22

Post by ceejayoz »

loopycode wrote: post #8
lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But software and Sistine chapel having creators doesn’t provide any proof regarding origins of anything else. Some people choose to assume things that make themselves feel better, such as after lives and gods. Some people assume the opposite. Some people don’t assume anything at all. Either way, it’s nobody else’s business. Belief = assumption + ego, so I find assumption to be a bet…

The proof is in the pudding. The creation is the proof. Even Moon does not have life... Even though it has the right distance from the sun and what not...

There's no single "right distance from the sun" - areas of Mars have temperature ranges acceptable for some Earth bacteria, Europa likely has liquid seas, etc., and Earth-style life isn't the only option - and the Moon is inhospitable in a variety of other ways.

We also can't completely discount life on the Moon having briefly explored a couple acres of it, largely on foot.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#23

Post by Starwatcher2001 »

linsistine wrote: post #4
Rainymood wrote: post #2

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

If the universe was created, it wasn't created to be friendly to life. I'd guess that more than 99.99999 % of it is hostile to human existence.

On the subject of over reporting of church attendence, the discrimination against atheists in the USA may have a good part to play:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheist...

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#24

Post by tw04 »

linsistine wrote: post #9
lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But software and Sistine chapel having creators doesn’t provide any proof regarding origins of anything else. Some people choose to assume things that make themselves feel better, such as after lives and gods. Some people assume the opposite. Some people don’t assume anything at all. Either way, it’s nobody else’s business. Belief = assumption + ego, so I find assumption to be a bet…

How is it not proof? It's using the most fundamental of logic. We're talking elementary logic here. I see a thing, this thing must of came from something. Things just don't appear for no reason and with no creator. A pen, a banana, a baby, a piece of code, all of these things came from something. And all of these things compared to the universe are incredibly simple. But how come you believe the universe came into ex…

>A pen, a banana, a baby, a piece of code, all of these things came from something. And all of these things compared to the universe are incredibly simple. But how come you believe the universe came into existence from nothing and without design?

The modern banana, a pen, a baby, a piece of code - these all were invented by us, and made out of something that already existed. Just because so many things that WE observe have a beginning and end, doesn't mean EVERYTHING has a beginning and end.

Our entire world/universal view is skewed by the fact we are mortal. Even if we go by the logic of someone had to make this, it couldn't have come from nowhere - then who made the inventor? Where did that come from? At some point your logic will REQUIRE you to believe that "things appear for no reason and with no creator".

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#25

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #9
lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But software and Sistine chapel having creators doesn’t provide any proof regarding origins of anything else. Some people choose to assume things that make themselves feel better, such as after lives and gods. Some people assume the opposite. Some people don’t assume anything at all. Either way, it’s nobody else’s business. Belief = assumption + ego, so I find assumption to be a bet…

How is it not proof? It's using the most fundamental of logic. We're talking elementary logic here. I see a thing, this thing must of came from something. Things just don't appear for no reason and with no creator. A pen, a banana, a baby, a piece of code, all of these things came from something. And all of these things compared to the universe are incredibly simple. But how come you believe the universe came into ex…

> Things just don't appear for no reason and with no creator.

This logic must logically apply to said creator.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#26

Post by Starwatcher2001 »

linsistine wrote: post #18
renholder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always defer to Stephen Fry's answer[0], when approached on the aspect of the existence of a god. [0] - https://youtu.be/I_ciu7_cOhg

Would you be able to summarize what he says? At work and I can't watch any videos lol

You can find a transcript here: https://www.age-of-the-sage.org/quotations/quotes/stephen_fr...

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#28

Post by threatofrain »

Rainymood wrote: post #2

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

A lot of people can think of both perspectives because so many westerners come from Christian households or settings.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#29

Post by Passthepeas »

While I am an atheist myself, I grew up going to a Unitarian church. They held food drives and other charity events, and was a social staple of our community. Religion can give a person's life structure, give them a social support network they might not have otherwise. I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with it.

What many atheists seem to miss is this, god doesn't need to be real for religion to have massive benefits for an individual. I will never fault anyone for believing, nor will I fault anyone for playing up their level of belief to be able to participate. I will not overlook the excesses and corruption of large scale organized religions, but on a smaller scale it can be of great benefit for a community.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#30

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #16
lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But software and Sistine chapel having creators doesn’t provide any proof regarding origins of anything else. Some people choose to assume things that make themselves feel better, such as after lives and gods. Some people assume the opposite. Some people don’t assume anything at all. Either way, it’s nobody else’s business. Belief = assumption + ego, so I find assumption to be a bet…

I'm not even bringing feelings or faith into this discussion though. This is pure logic my friend. It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. That something as intricate and complex as the universe just came to be randomly, for no reason, and with no architect of some sort.

Where this line of thinking falls apart is realizing you must, due to the same logic, explain the architect's coming into existence.
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