The pros and cons of placebo buttons • Hacker News Board

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#51

Post by fyfy18 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

ddeokbokki wrote: post #16

JansjoFromIkea wrote: post #14

I notice a lot in London that there are a bunch of pedestrian lights in areas witha steady flow of traffic that will only work if the button has been pressed, yet every single day I see people, often the same people, stand there until someone else presses the button. Part of me wonders if there's almost an aspect of not wanting to cause offense involved. If you're the person who presses the button, you're responsible…

Londoner here - I personally don't press the button if it's only me and the road is not busy since the time I would save would be lost over all the people I would make stop just for me. I've seen many people not press the buttons thinking it's just there as a placebo, it's mostly tourists though as it's common knowledge amongst Londoners that the button signals the traffic operating system that a pedestrian would lik…

My experience is even locals wait and don't press the button. Near where I live there is a pedestrian crossing across a busy road, and I've seen people waiting there many times without pressing the button. This is in Zone 2, far from where tourists would go.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#52

Post by mxwsn » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

r_klancer wrote: post #49

Worse yet, at least in Somerville and the general Boston area, I'm seeing touch-sensitive buttons instead of physical buttons that depress--with no haptic feedback; and only some of them play a recorded "Wait" when you press. I'm gradually training myself not to jam my finger painfully against them to be "sure" I pressed. If it turns out they're also placebos, I think I'm just going to give one a good kick next time…

In the same area; don't those have a visual light indicator that flashes when you press it?

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#53

Post by mxwsn » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #41

Steltek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking is a $1 ticket in Massachusetts. I believe it's there simply to assign fault in a crash.

A crash involving whom? I'd be shocked if a driver can hit a jaywalking pedestrian and not be at fault.

The idea is that the higher purpose of a $1 ticket is creating a paper trail of jaywalking behavior that could be useful in court.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#54

Post by nabnob » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #41

Steltek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking is a $1 ticket in Massachusetts. I believe it's there simply to assign fault in a crash.

A crash involving whom? I'd be shocked if a driver can hit a jaywalking pedestrian and not be at fault.

It can definitely happen. I'm guessing it varies state by state, but I was hit by a car while out running. I was crossing at a green light, didn't press the button, and a car made a left turn at the same time and hit me. The police report said the driver was not at fault.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#55

Post by empath75 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

To me the only purpose for having a button is for intersections that only go red when there is a car or pedestrian waiting to cross.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#56

Post by joombaga » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #44

_bxg1 wrote: post #15

This makes me so annoyed. I much prefer ones without buttons because I don't have to mess with it; when there is a button, I assume I have to go over and press it, but it sounds like in some cases I don't (for a while now I've suspected them to be pointless). But there's no way to tell the difference so I still have to everywhere.

And unless you remember which ones are fake, you always have to press. And because you don't know if the people in front of you pressed, you have to awkwardly walk past them and press it (again). It's always annoying me.

You could ask them to press it. "Excuse me, could you press the crossing button?" There are few strangers to social awkwardness.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#57

Post by GeordiePowers » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

In Toronto, most of the buttons have long done nothing to control the light cycle, and only trigger the audio crossing indicator. Lately they've been replacing the signs signs on these, with each now saying "Button for audible signal only". Good way to re-purpose the existing hardware.

See here for a comparison of old vs. new https://i.imgur.com/a0FXI5c.png

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#58

Post by jaymzcampbell » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

JansjoFromIkea wrote: post #14

I notice a lot in London that there are a bunch of pedestrian lights in areas witha steady flow of traffic that will only work if the button has been pressed, yet every single day I see people, often the same people, stand there until someone else presses the button. Part of me wonders if there's almost an aspect of not wanting to cause offense involved. If you're the person who presses the button, you're responsible…

(Another) Londoner here, regarding risking the ire of drivers - I used to feel like that and now no longer care - I press, wait and cross safely. Having seen enough close calls in London traffic or with bikes suddenly coming up and zooming past I value my safety more than inconveniencing cars.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#59

Post by eeZah7Ux » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

carbocation wrote: post #2

I feel like there is a bit of ethical hysteresis here. If you have buttons that are designed to be placebo from the start, I find that unethical. If you have buttons that work, but have to be disabled due to a change in plans, that strikes me as less problematic (but they should still eventually be removed). So, how you get there matters.

I'm saddened to find a comment about ethics only after pages of uninteresting comments.

Placebos are psychological manipulation and that's why they are illegal in medicine in various countries.

Deception, especially in a safety-critical scenario, leads to mistrust, cynicism and even paranoid thinking.

Guess what? The antivax movement and most silly conspiracy theories are fueled by mistrust.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#60

Post by oarsinsync » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

JansjoFromIkea wrote: post #14

I notice a lot in London that there are a bunch of pedestrian lights in areas witha steady flow of traffic that will only work if the button has been pressed, yet every single day I see people, often the same people, stand there until someone else presses the button. Part of me wonders if there's almost an aspect of not wanting to cause offense involved. If you're the person who presses the button, you're responsible…

Not a Londoner, but I have zero regard for the interests and sensibilities of drivers. As a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I feel safe in saying that the worst road users generally are (in order) drivers, cyclists and pedestrians.

Amusingly, that also goes in the same order of 'who is more likely to kill you if they run into you', which may play a part.

Eitherway, I always press the button. It doesn't matter if it's rush hour, middle of the day, or middle of the night.

My safety is more important than saving a driver a minute on their journey.