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For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

bloomberg.com

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Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#51

Post by selestify »

wahern wrote: post #45
thrwy_01 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

> “And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters — who your neighbor is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit ... or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.” Lee Kuan Yew, April 20, 1987. Taiwan was "civilized" by 50 years of Japanese occupation that wasn…

How did China get its empires on and off for thousands of years of ancient history if its people are unruly and anarchic?

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#52

Post by yesenadam »

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9
est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

(Firstly, I don't accept your assumption that cheating is endemic in China, i.e. and not elsewhere. But I'm no expert at all.)

Maybe the question should be, why do you hear a lot more about it. Because China is 100 times the population of those other places? And, well, there seems a trend at least on HN lately, in stories from US papers/journals, and in the US media generally I assume (don't know, I'm not there) to favour 'China bad' stories, over 'China good' or '(Other country) bad'. It's pretty tedious, and seems to have started not long ago. It has that nauseating feeling of that regular US media obsession on the next country they'll invade/bomb. Demonization, subhumanization, whatever you want to call it.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#53

Post by agent008t »

netsharc wrote: post #46
nerbert wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In normal countries you have a strong civil society & consumer associations that have the teeth to bite these scammers.

I won't agree with the "normal countries", but I wonder at what point does a society become uncivil? Obviously in a tribal village in the past you know who lived in the hut next door and it was like a big family who trusted each other (food was shared, mothers would take care of each others' kids). Maybe it's related to the Dunbar number?

From an outside perspective, Japan still seems extremely civil despite being very densely populated. I have never felt safer anywhere else as a visitor. I suspect a near-ubiquitous level of high homogeneous culture is a big factor.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#54

Post by entity345 »

est wrote: post #40
entity345 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, this is a sweeping, borderline racist, statement to state that "Chinese cheat". China is no more into IP theft or cheating than others. I think people should really be careful and refrain from "drinking the kool-aid" handed to them by some media. Now, Taiwan and Hongkong are China. But China that continued on more traditional values. The communist regime has worked hard to change the fabric of society (like it…

You don't seem to understand, social credit is the direct outcome of "legal and regulatory environment".

What has that to do with the question or my reply?

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#55

Post by beaker52 »

I wonder what people who spend hundreds of hours managing their own NAS, maintaining private email servers, avoiding Google and Facebook, using VPNs etc do to protect their privacy in the face of real world surveillance. I'm imagining that they don't walk around wearing balaclavas, using dead letter drops and paying with cash.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#56

Post by wahern »

selestify wrote: post #51
wahern wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters — who your neighbor is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit ... or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.” Lee Kuan Yew, April 20, 1987. Taiwan was "civilized" by 50 years of Japanese occupation that wasn…

How did China get its empires on and off for thousands of years of ancient history if its people are unruly and anarchic?

The same way the German "barbarians" did? Unruly doesn't imply backward; anarchic doesn't imply chaotic.

Also, China is a huge country with many cultures. Closer to Beijing the culture was historically more legalist and authoritarian. The southern coastal trading cultures were more anarchic. And I think that's still very much the same today, except because of industrialization and nationalization there's conflict where historically there was a natural symbiosis and passivity regarding the respective roles.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#57

Post by agent008t »

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9
est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

It sounds very similar to Russia. I suspect it has something to do with their communist past.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#58

Post by [deleted] »

onion2k wrote: post #7

As the article itself points out, the Chinese media is full of stories about Chinese people being targets of scams by food producers, eCommerce companies selling fakes, and scams by one another (dating scams and so on). These social-credit surveillance programs have been marketed to the people they're aimed at as a benefit that protects them from potential crime. It's the same everywhere - here in the UK we have the…

[deleted]

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#59

Post by PakG1 »

When I compare the history of China and the history of Europe (and let's face it, North American norms derive a lot from Europe), I think there's a huge cultural divergence that can be pinpointed to one spot in history: Europe had a Magna Carta moment while China did not. I think that this is the foundational and fundamental thing that creates a lot of the differences in political and cultural norms.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#60

Post by ido »

thrwy_01 wrote: post #36
est wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; Because cheating is a cultural rather than ethnical thing. There are ethnical Chinese people in those regions you listed, but sure mainland China sailed a totally different cultural course over the last 70 years. In mainland china, cheating mostly happen because of over competition. If you don't…

Isnt there a similar level of competition in all of those places? Also I've met a lot of mainland Chinese people who recently immigrated to the us and can say that they don't seem like unscrupulous people at a significantly greater rate than the general population.

The penalties for "losing" are much lower in rich countries.

My grandfather used to say that he left the Soviet Union because he didn't want to live in a country where you have to cheat in order to have a good life.

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