For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems • Hacker News Board

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#21

Post by hyperion2010 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:39 AM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9

est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

Overly simplistic, but the cultural revolution destroyed an entire set of social norms and many of the people in power in various regions were adolescents who were at the height of their rejection of such norms due to normal human development. Unfortunately that rejection of society that seems so crucial as a teen doesn't actually play out very well in the long run.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#22

Post by est » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:39 AM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9

est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

> why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore;

Because cheating is a cultural rather than ethnical thing.

There are ethnical Chinese people in those regions you listed, but sure mainland China sailed a totally different cultural course over the last 70 years.

In mainland china, cheating mostly happen because of over competition. If you don't cheat, others will and will crush you in business or academic competition. Cheaters go home for chicken dinner while non-cheaters goes to jail.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#23

Post by pcr0 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:40 AM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9

est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

Rule of law vs rule by law

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#24

Post by vbtemp » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:41 AM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9

est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

Massive famines, "cultural revolution", decades of civil war, genocides.. in general the demented social programs of Mao and his henchment. This was China from the 1910s to 1970s. Not to mention a century of colonization and forced concession. Chinese culture overseas was not ruptured in such a way, and preserves a lot of aspects of it from before that bloody century.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#25

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

new_here wrote: post #15

Interesting article about a topic that Westerners generally find dystopian. However, it didn’t make much mention about how this system can and has been abused to punish dissidents (e.g. feminists) and how citizens with low social credit can redeem themselves. From other articles about cases I’ve read the rules seem to be quite opaque and somewhat subjective to whims of the enforcers.

China is not a Western country so the concept of individual liberties and having the individual as the most important unit in society, as a concept, is pretty much foreign (literally!) to them. You will find very similar trends across Asia. Japan is an interesting case where the current constitution was written by Americans after WWII superimposed on a culture that's quite different in the first place.

This is for similar reason that you can't remove a dictator and install a democracy from scratch in its place. If the culture/mindset to support a democracy is not there, in the hearts of individuals, it won't work. Proven numerous times already in recent history.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#26

Post by 2stop » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

abc-xyz wrote: post #11

It's important to realize that lack of public outcry/protests, or even public approval, does not necessarily mean that they support it. All my Chinese Tsinghua/Peking friends (20+) find it horrifying, yet many of them will find ways to show support for both this and other government propaganda, because they realize doing so will be beneficial for their future (even those who don't realize the government is building a…

[dead]

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#27

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:45 AM UTC

nerbert wrote: post #14

onion2k wrote: post #7

As the article itself points out, the Chinese media is full of stories about Chinese people being targets of scams by food producers, eCommerce companies selling fakes, and scams by one another (dating scams and so on). These social-credit surveillance programs have been marketed to the people they're aimed at as a benefit that protects them from potential crime. It's the same everywhere - here in the UK we have the…

In normal countries you have a strong civil society & consumer associations that have the teeth to bite these scammers.

And more importantly, strong entrepreneurship so you have many companies offering similar products, so that you can decide to "punish" with your wallet the companies that deceive you. It goes hand in hand.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#28

Post by ves » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:45 AM UTC

nerbert wrote: post #14

onion2k wrote: post #7

As the article itself points out, the Chinese media is full of stories about Chinese people being targets of scams by food producers, eCommerce companies selling fakes, and scams by one another (dating scams and so on). These social-credit surveillance programs have been marketed to the people they're aimed at as a benefit that protects them from potential crime. It's the same everywhere - here in the UK we have the…

In normal countries you have a strong civil society & consumer associations that have the teeth to bite these scammers.

“normal” might be a strong word when the society in question is the largest single one on the planet.

That’s not to say I agree with, or want to normalize, the Chinese government’s actions, though.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#29

Post by entity345 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:47 AM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9

est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

First, this is a sweeping, borderline racist, statement to state that "Chinese cheat". China is no more into IP theft or cheating than others. I think people should really be careful and refrain from "drinking the kool-aid" handed to them by some media.

Now, Taiwan and Hongkong are China. But China that continued on more traditional values. The communist regime has worked hard to change the fabric of society (like it did in e.g. Russia) and that has had negative consequences on culture and manners, and brought distrust in most institutions.

It is also down to the legal and regulatory environment. Just look for stories from Europe and the Us in the 19th century and you'll find many, many stories like you could hear from China today. And those stories from China today are what happens in many countries around the world outside of the Western 'bubble'.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#30

Post by jcbrand » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:48 AM UTC

I recently read Jordan Peterson's "12 Rules for Life" and one of the things he mentioned that really struck me, was that people who suffer from agoraphobia (fear of public places) eventually end up with the same fear (that they have when outside) inside their own homes; but since they're already home there's nowhere for them to go so they're stuck in perpetual fear.

It's also known by psychologists that a fear gets strengthened whenever an individual purposefully avoids the fear-generating situation (e.g. a public place), and it progressively gets weakened when you routinely expose yourself to the fearful situation.

So, regarding mistrust between individuals and using credit scores to try and "solve" this...

I expect that dystopic technological surveillance "solutions" such as Chinese social credit scores will actually over time weaken trust between individuals in the same way that purposefully avoiding public places increases someone's agoraphobia.

If you are a generally mistrustful person, then you're not going to start trusting people more due to social credit scores.

Trust is an act of faith, and faith is necessary when you don't actually know.

Imagine someone who is not registered for most social credit systems (perhaps because they're privacy conscious) comes to ask you for help or wants to do business with you. Is a social credit system going to make other people more trusting of that person? Of course not, it's going to make them more distrustful of that person.

Also, as someone has already mentioned, by letting people snitch on one another, credit score systems will foster even more distrust between people.

It reminds me of the Stasi in Eastern Germany, where neighbors and even spouses would report one another's activities to the secret police.

These systems foster further distrust, instead of trust.

As humans we need to overcome negative, fearful emotions like distrust by learning to judge character and to have courage and compassion, not by trying to outsource all our emotional and cognitive responsibilities to "apps".

The 20th century was full of social horrors, including China (e.g. Mao's famine in which 10s of millions of people starved to death due to forced collectivisation of farms). I get the feeling that the 21st century will have its fair share, and schemes such social credit scores will play their part in bringing them about.