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AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

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Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#311
post #305

I wonder how useful ai will be in balancing games in the future. Games with more than one race and multiple upgrade paths seems like a nightmare to ensure that things are even for players that are equally skilled. It would be interesting to have a game that would auto-balance itself, especially if you wanted to add extra content without having to worry about throwing everything off.

That's a cool idea but many games already struggle to find a fair balance point at all ranges of human skill, so expanding that range to include AI could just make things more difficult. Maybe there's a way to force the AI to replicate bad players, but I'm not sure what learning objective you would give it to achieve that.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#312
post #71

The gameplay was really interesting - i wonder if we'll start seeing the over-saturation of the main prior to first expand in pro games?

There are three things this seems to do. And what's changed is the perceived value of these. 1) Increased mining rate. Although there's a prescribed "maximum", as I understand it adding more workers, up to some limit, does yield more minerals beyond the prescribed. 2) Buffer against harassment. If you are over-saturated and lose two probes, you rate of income isn't affected. 3) Bootstrapping an expansion. All of the…

Here's exactly how the mining mechanics work in sc2.

1) only one worker can mine from a mineral patch or gas geyser at a time

2) workers phase through each other while mining, so they don't lose time pathfinding around fellow workers.

3) every base has 4 "close" mineral patches and 4 "far" mineral patches. The close mineral patches are mined at full efficiency by only 2 workers; as soon as one finishes mining, the other has already returned and starts mining immediately. For the far patches, when one worker finishes mining, the second worker is only halfway to the minerals. Sticking a third worker on a far patch can cover that little mining gap, but the benefit is small (like ~30%).

4) therefore for efficient mining you want 16 workers on minerals. For "perfect" mining, you want 20 workers on minerals with the extra 4 on far patches only.

5) usually a triple-stacked close patch will automatically lose the excess worker to a far patch, but sometimes you need to "worker stack" manually to achieve this. You can see MaNa worker stacking manually at the beginning of his showmatch when he doesn't have anything else he could be doing with his excess apm. 24 workers on minerals guarantees maximum income because 4 workers will never fit on a patch; they'll start automatically reassigning themselves to different patches until they find a less crowded one.

6) more than 24 workers on minerals provides exactly 0 extra income. Still good to have extra workers though so you're not losing mining time when you build buildings, get harassed, etc.

7) every base has 2 vespene geysers, and 95% of the time these are in a position where 3 workers will saturate them perfectly. There are a couple of maps (or at least used to be... might be fixed now) where you can eke out the tiniest bit of extra gas by having 4 workers on a geyser.

8) every serious sc2 player already knows all of these mechanics

I personally think Artosis was overstating the innovation of DeepMind's worker over-saturation. I agree with something Rotty said earlier in the series; sometimes you make a suboptimal move and it works, but that doesn't mean it was the "correct" play. It just means that you papered over a flaw with stronger execution somewhere else.

I'm still very impressed with these games, just not with regards to the AI's build orders.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#313
post #46

This is really impressive, I didn't expect starcraft to be played this well by a machine learning based AI. I'm excited to read the paper when it comes out! That said, I'm not sure I agree that it was winning mainly due to better decision making. For context, I've been ranked in the top 0.1% of players and beaten pros in Starcraft 2, and also work as a machine learning engineer. The stalker micro in particular looked…

One macro technique used by AlphaStar agents that is not used by human pros is building extra workers beyond currently exploitable capacity.

This gives them reserves when attacked and some workers killed. They can also ramp up mining at a new base quickly by moving the extra workers there.

Apparently the benefits outweigh the costs for these workers for AlphaStar. It will be interesting to see if some pros decide to adopt the technique and if it improves human performance as well.

Disclaimer: I do not have much Starcraft experience.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#314
post #46

This is really impressive, I didn't expect starcraft to be played this well by a machine learning based AI. I'm excited to read the paper when it comes out! That said, I'm not sure I agree that it was winning mainly due to better decision making. For context, I've been ranked in the top 0.1% of players and beaten pros in Starcraft 2, and also work as a machine learning engineer. The stalker micro in particular looked…

One macro technique used by AlphaStar agents that is not used by human pros is building extra workers beyond currently exploitable capacity. This gives them reserves when attacked and some workers killed. They can also ramp up mining at a new base quickly by moving the extra workers there. Apparently the benefits outweigh the costs for these workers for AlphaStar. It will be interesting to see if some pros decide to…

Workers mine 40 minerals per minute and cost 50, taking... 15 seconds to build? I forget. Workers beyond 24 provide zero benefit (better to send them to the natural).

Let's say you make 4 extra at a cost of 200 minerals and then lose 4 workers to harassment. You are out 200 minerals in both cases, but the prebuilt workers in the prebuilt case will mine an extra... 100 minerals? (40 + 30 + 20 + 10).

This doesn't take chronoboost into account though. I don't know, the gain is marginal, and the opportunity cost is having a smaller army (2 zealots for example)

Please correct my numbers if I've made a mistake, I forget build times and havent played since hots

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#315
post #46

This is really impressive, I didn't expect starcraft to be played this well by a machine learning based AI. I'm excited to read the paper when it comes out! That said, I'm not sure I agree that it was winning mainly due to better decision making. For context, I've been ranked in the top 0.1% of players and beaten pros in Starcraft 2, and also work as a machine learning engineer. The stalker micro in particular looked…

Also these wins are not using same inputs that human receive (ie on screen image) and outputs that humans are allowed. They instead use PySC APIs which has much more flexibility, perfect information and no constraints of limited screen real estate and pixels. There is a claim in that article that they have another version being trained that uses on screen only information but I still don’t know if AI is allowed to by…

The final game in the video has this limitation. It does affect the performance of the agent.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched all of the event live and I feel that that graph is deceptive. If a game is 15 minutes and has 3 main battles lasting 15 seconds each, and you use 100 average APM on non-battle time and 1000 APM during battles, your average APM will be 145 but you obviously have a superhuman advantage. This is compounded by the fact that almost all of AlphaStar’s actions are “useful” whereas a significant amount of the huma…

TLO seems to have a longer tail than AlphaStar in that graph though, so doesn't that imply that TLO peaked at an even higher APM, presumably during battles? Fair point about humans needing minor adjustments though. Another comment also mentioned a bug in the APM measurement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18994350

Yes,could that bug be the reason for the AI getting to 1000APM?

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#317
i dont mean to be negative but ML and even conventional computing are starting to make me tired. im always wondering what it will be next that ML can do better than humans. what is next up for automation? will this be the one to send a shock-wave through an industry / the economy? i feel like i need to constantly watch and keep track of the progress thats being made. and im starting to get tired from having to re-think life again and again.

for example, google has published voice synthesis samples, voices generated from text, that are indistinguishable from real human speech. it hasnt been perfected yet, but i think most people would agree that we basically now live in a world where voice recordings cant be automatically trusted the way they used to be. it completely changes the way you think about and navigate the world. it will open up a universe of new schemes, methods of fraud, etc etc that we will have to adapt to.

then there are deepfakes. there are limitations, and the results arent perfect, but its very early days. again i would say that the consensus among us is that we now live in a world where video evidence is basically no longer intrinsically trust-worthy in the way that it used to be.

i practically grew up inside a computer. but i am now sensing that as ML fills in, its going to be a very uncomfortable ride for me personally -- and i dont understand how it couldnt be for anyone else. and what about when AGI comes? just curious to see if anyone else shares my experience with this.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#318

Here is an example of what you do without artificial limitations on actions. https://youtu.be/3PLplRDSgpo Just goes to show how important those restrictions are for competitive gameplay against AI.

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#319
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if a human tries to use the API with a custom UI of the human's own choosing? Such a UI might not exist yet, but are there ideas for more efficient UIs that could be built?

Yes I am curious of this too. What happens if the human has a giant TV screen that can see the whole map at once Or, what if we slow down the game, so that the human can actually pause the game each second and consider what to do next. That's basically what the computer is allowed to do

> Or, what if we slow down the game, so that the human can actually pause the game each second and consider what to do next. That's basically what the computer is allowed to do

While this would make it more fair, it would just make the micro game more similar to chess or go. I don't think humans would necessarily win in the end.

Re: AlphaStar: Mastering the Real-Time Strategy Game StarCraft II

#320
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if a human tries to use the API with a custom UI of the human's own choosing? Such a UI might not exist yet, but are there ideas for more efficient UIs that could be built?

Yes I am curious of this too. What happens if the human has a giant TV screen that can see the whole map at once Or, what if we slow down the game, so that the human can actually pause the game each second and consider what to do next. That's basically what the computer is allowed to do

It would massively be faster I think.

Upgrade building 3 comes available when you have enough resources.

A separate tab with insufficient resources gives you an overview with what you need to finish a,b,c.

A red alert appears when an enemy is spotted. You can click nearby units attack or a FSM with the attack strategy.

An finished building automatically will be placed near the town center.

Not working farmers can search for resources.

A wall is suggested by your current buildings, you can set an margin of eg. 20 meters.

The question is, how much programming will the custom UI need ( and how deep) to make it a lot more efficient

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