Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#61

Post by lqet » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

francisofascii wrote: post #38

nkurz wrote: post #9

There is fear that some significant portion of the recent increase in redemption rate may be due to fraud. Oregon recently increased the redemption from 5 cents to 10 cents, but the neighboring state of Washington still does not have a deposit. This creates an incentive for people to scavenge bottles in Washington and return them across the border in Oregon. Here's a recent article about the problem: "Oregon senator…

Random checks of out-of-state mail trucks should certainly be in order. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Deposit

But only on mother's day!

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#62

Post by vkou » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

tyre wrote: post #31

Afforess wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this still even a thing? Michigan also has a 10 cent deposit, and fraud was an issue in the 90's, but it's been fixed since. Grocery stores use automated bottle scanners to check barcodes. I'm not sure how you could "fool" a machine that needs a barcode for each physical bottle return.

It does check the barcode, but a generic coke bottle could have been purchased in Washington and returned across the boarder for 10 cents. That’s a valid bottle, but an abuse of the system because they are getting 10 cents from Oregon that was never paid. The point of the program is you pay 10 cents and get it back if you recycle.

Someone paid those 10 cents, though... And then didn't return the bottle.

As long as returns are <100%, I don't think it matters who bought the bottle.

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#63

Post by rob-olmos » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

Does anyone know if an OR store can tack on a bottle deposit fee for selling a bottle that's only marked CA CRV?

I also tried to recycle it at the store's recycling machine and it says it's not accepted. Recently found this out but haven't looked into it yet.

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#64

Post by schoen » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

wtvanhest wrote: post #17

rconti wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in California, I've never once redeemed a bottle. I toss it into the recycling bin.

I don't think there are places in the city to take them. You need a car.

If you mean San Francisco, there used to be a place next to the Castro Safeway, but apparently now there are only places down on Bayshore.

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#65

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

jwagenet wrote: post #14

nkurz wrote: post #9

There is fear that some significant portion of the recent increase in redemption rate may be due to fraud. Oregon recently increased the redemption from 5 cents to 10 cents, but the neighboring state of Washington still does not have a deposit. This creates an incentive for people to scavenge bottles in Washington and return them across the border in Oregon. Here's a recent article about the problem: "Oregon senator…

I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some spillover from Washington or California, but I doubt that it can be an incredibly high percentage. Frankly, I think it’s better that these cans and bottles are being recycled, fraudulently or otherwise. I’m sure it hurts the Oregon pocketbook, but according to the article, the cost of the program is only six figures. This is only a problem (cost wise) when redemption is over 1…

> I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some spillover from Washington or California

Probably not systematically from CA, which also has a bottle deposit (though there may be some arbitrage opportunity since the CRV is, IIRC, 5¢ for some containers that have a 10¢ deposit on Oregon.)

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#66

Post by makeiteasy » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

martinald wrote: post #15

claudiulodro wrote: post #5

As an Oregonian, I think the biggest contributor is definitely bumping the redemption value from 5 cents to 10 cents. At that price, it makes it economically viable for the homeless population to spend lots of time going around and gathering every available bottle. In my neighborhood, I even have homeless people digging through my recycling bins every few hours rummaging for bottles to cash in!

Is this actually a good thing? In Germany (esp Berlin) homeless people do this a lot, but I've seen them basically empty a whole trash container on the street to get a few bottles. While it's great there is a revenue source for the homeless; I can't help thinking that it's not a great way to do it. Must cost a fortune to clean up the trash after people have been through them, way more than the few (euro)cents you get…

In Los Angeles, most people put them into a separate bag in their recycling bins. Then the homeless and scavengers come by and just take a single bag out of the bin without causing too much other trouble. They will occasionally dump a bin to get something at the bottom, but it's pretty rare in my experience.

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#67

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

evjim wrote: post #51

lolsal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some spillover from Washington or California, but I doubt that it can be an incredibly high percentage. Why do you doubt that it could be a high percentage? A huge number of folks live in Vancouver across the OR/WA border and commute into Portland every day, and do their shopping in OR for the lack of sales tax.

You just said it. They do their shopping in Oregon. So they probably buy the bottles their tax free. Save ten cents on tax, spend it on deposit. It's a wash to the consumer.

> You just said it. They do their shopping in Oregon.

Which makes it quite convenient for them to “return” bottles gathered from other people who shop near where the returner loves in WA to Oregon for the deposit.

You seem to be only considering people returning bottles purchased for their own consumption.

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#68

Post by vidarh » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

martinald wrote: post #15

claudiulodro wrote: post #5

As an Oregonian, I think the biggest contributor is definitely bumping the redemption value from 5 cents to 10 cents. At that price, it makes it economically viable for the homeless population to spend lots of time going around and gathering every available bottle. In my neighborhood, I even have homeless people digging through my recycling bins every few hours rummaging for bottles to cash in!

Is this actually a good thing? In Germany (esp Berlin) homeless people do this a lot, but I've seen them basically empty a whole trash container on the street to get a few bottles. While it's great there is a revenue source for the homeless; I can't help thinking that it's not a great way to do it. Must cost a fortune to clean up the trash after people have been through them, way more than the few (euro)cents you get…

If there is such a problem with homeless people that desperate, then perhaps it is a sign one should do something about helping the homeless.

I grew up in Norway, and while Norway certainly isn't free of homeless people, I never saw this despite a widespread bottle return system (in fact, the Norwegian company Tomra has a majority of the world "reverse vending machine" market, primarily focused on bottle returns).

Norway have had a return rate in the 95%+ range for years in large part because a variety of groups of people see empty bottles as an income source.

I think this to a large extent have also culturally solved the problem: while some people certainly throw their bottles in the bin, there's little reason not to instead put your bottle down next to it, because you know it will get picked up.

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#69

Post by makeiteasy » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #13

elektor wrote: post #3

Growing up in California, I assumed the bottle deposit system was a federal thing. Moving to North Carolina and seeing people causally throw away glass bottles into the trash was definitely a cultural shock for me. Kudos to Oregon for doing this.

Living in California, I've never once redeemed a bottle. I toss it into the recycling bin.

Likewise. These days I give them to my housekeeper because she likes to redeem them. It adds about $15-25 to what we pay her every 2 weeks. I imagine if she does this with other clients she's making some nice extra cash!

Re: Oregon Bottle Deposit System Hits 90 Percent Redemption Rate

#70

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

theoh wrote: post #53

sokoloff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no doubt some significant overhead to the program, that is likely modeled as being covered in part by the "slippage" of bottles that don't get returned. Fraudulent returns cut into that allowance, even before the redemption rate hits 100%.

How does the Oregon program "know" if a returned bottle is bona fide or fraudulent (from out of state)? I don't see how substituting units of a fungible quantity, which identical bottles seem to be, can have the consequences you suggest.

> How does the Oregon program "know" if a returned bottle is bona fide or fraudulent (from out of state)?

The program doesn't on a per bottle bases, but the effectiveness at dealing with the problem the program aims to solve (local landfilling recyclable containers) is impacted by the substitution; in the context of the function served, imported bottles that would not otherwise be imported are not fungible with local bottles.