Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition • Hacker News Board

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#51

Post by emaginniss » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

lenticular wrote: post #39

sah2ed wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juicero was more of gross incompetence than fraud. The outcomes were similar, but the root causes are not quite the same.

Investors should have consulted researchers in the biomedical field before investing. They would have told them that what Theranos was promising is impossible. Everyone who invested in this fraud did not do their due diligence.

I'm not sure why this is being downvoted when it is definitely true. Real biomed companies were approached, but universally turned Theranos down because they knew the limitations what what Theranos was attempting. In the face of that rejection, Holmes turned to military/gov't people and investors with big names, but no real healthcare clout.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#52

Post by naniwaduni » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

emaginniss wrote: post #50

samstave wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason she was able to fool such highly prominent people is due to her coming from really old money in the US - with her Fleischmann's Yeast family lineage - her family was in the upper echelons of US monied families (think robber baron class-money).

Historically, yes, but her immediate family was not particularly wealthy, lived a middle-class lifestyle, and was even in difficult financial straits at times. I think they had the remnants of money on them, but not the actual capital.

An illustration of how wealth and power, inherited across generations, consists of far more than just liquid assets.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#53

Post by dmix » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #33

dmix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the book Bad Blood, Balwani makes Elizabeth look like a fumbling fool by comparison while he's the evil tyrant building a culture of yes-men and firing anyone with the least amount of dissent (and if you didnt work 12hrs/day). But I'm sure they were both nearly equally culpable. You never really get insight on who (of the two) were the main drivers to start the lying and eventual out-right fraud but it wa…

And if she had visited reddit or HN or any one of numerous sites they would have repeated the meme that "no one knows what they're doing anyway, just fake it till you make it", and she would have shrugged and kept on trucking.

[citation needed]

I'd love to see examples of this idea being promoted here.

I personally remember Theranos being attacked on HN first for being full of shit, well before it became popular in the press. Not to mention the ~2yrs where 'lean' stuff that was endless parroted here which is all about not faking it but actually talking to customers.

I also highly doubt any YC type company would fit that criteria either.

Maybe you see that stuff on Reddit but HN is full of some of the most skeptical and critical people when it comes to reviewing startups.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#54

Post by dmix » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #48

dmix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the book Bad Blood, Balwani makes Elizabeth look like a fumbling fool by comparison while he's the evil tyrant building a culture of yes-men and firing anyone with the least amount of dissent (and if you didnt work 12hrs/day). But I'm sure they were both nearly equally culpable. You never really get insight on who (of the two) were the main drivers to start the lying and eventual out-right fraud but it wa…

Yet, somehow, we all know a “Balwani” from work. We’ve all been employed somewhere where he was in charge: a total phony, who knows little to nothing about technology, used his smooth tongue or connections to fake his way into Senior Director of This or VP of That. How do organizations keep falling for these people's shtick and promoting/recruiting them into positions of power? For every Theranos where the phony is o…

> Yet, somehow, we all know a “Balwani” from work

I've had more than one sadly.

Say what you want about Mark Zuckerberg but his idea of hiring engineers to fill every role, not just development but project/product management and other leading positions, is spot on.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#55

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #45

George Shultz really comes off as a moron in all of this. > 'They can try to convince me that you're wrong and in this case I do believe you’re wrong,' Then he tricks his grandson into coming over to chat, and oh by the way there's two lawyers from the company sitting in the next room with NDA paperwork for you to sign. Later, he manages to weasel out of ever saying "I was wrong". > "Tyler’s handling of the troubling…

"George Shultz really comes off as a moron in all of this."

This is a good lesson for how big decisions in politics and business are made. Leaders are very prone to being conned by charismatic people and often don't check the facts.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#56

Post by SilasX » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #53

SilasX wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if she had visited reddit or HN or any one of numerous sites they would have repeated the meme that "no one knows what they're doing anyway, just fake it till you make it", and she would have shrugged and kept on trucking.

[citation needed] I'd love to see examples of this idea being promoted here. I personally remember Theranos being attacked on HN first for being full of shit, well before it became popular in the press. Not to mention the ~2yrs where 'lean' stuff that was endless parroted here which is all about not faking it but actually talking to customers. I also highly doubt any YC type company would fit that criteria either. Ma…

That's cheating though: "Hey, I already know your idea doesn't work, so obviously I don't endorse it."

The problem is what to do when you personally don't know the viability of your own idea and have to take advice while not having access to the same knowledge. If you stripped off the specifics, in every other context, HNers would by-and-large repeat the tropes about "oh yeah, you feel like you don't know what you're doing, but so does everyone else! It doesn't matter!"

Obviously, you can come after the fact and say "See, now that the idea failed and I expressed skepticism before, I obviously don't mean the fake-it-till-you-make-it crap for that startup, just the good ones." That's not impressive.

What matters is whether you know whether self-confidence is justified being the person in that situation.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#57

Post by sv123 » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #45

George Shultz really comes off as a moron in all of this. > 'They can try to convince me that you're wrong and in this case I do believe you’re wrong,' Then he tricks his grandson into coming over to chat, and oh by the way there's two lawyers from the company sitting in the next room with NDA paperwork for you to sign. Later, he manages to weasel out of ever saying "I was wrong". > "Tyler’s handling of the troubling…

After reading Bad Blood, the entire board comes off sounding completely incompetent.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#58

Post by kodablah » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #33

dmix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the book Bad Blood, Balwani makes Elizabeth look like a fumbling fool by comparison while he's the evil tyrant building a culture of yes-men and firing anyone with the least amount of dissent (and if you didnt work 12hrs/day). But I'm sure they were both nearly equally culpable. You never really get insight on who (of the two) were the main drivers to start the lying and eventual out-right fraud but it wa…

And if she had visited reddit or HN or any one of numerous sites they would have repeated the meme that "no one knows what they're doing anyway, just fake it till you make it", and she would have shrugged and kept on trucking.

I don't believe this is true unless you are intentionally assuming all ventures are painted with the same brush. It's not true with self driving cars, med tech, or anything else having to do with human safety. Not only is there not one shared voice on these sites, even if you pretended there were it would not be in favor of faking it until you make it when human safety is involved.

I think this subscribes to the more-frequent meme of assuming people apply their mindset on some types of tech business to all types of tech business.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#59

Post by SilasX » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #58

SilasX wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if she had visited reddit or HN or any one of numerous sites they would have repeated the meme that "no one knows what they're doing anyway, just fake it till you make it", and she would have shrugged and kept on trucking.

I don't believe this is true unless you are intentionally assuming all ventures are painted with the same brush. It's not true with self driving cars, med tech, or anything else having to do with human safety. Not only is there not one shared voice on these sites, even if you pretended there were it would not be in favor of faking it until you make it when human safety is involved. I think this subscribes to the more…

I'm not talking about advice given about ventures' viability, but to the people running them, who, like Holmes, might say, "gee, I'm in way over my head, I don't feel like I know what I'm doing" and are consistently told that everyone feels that way so it doesn't matter.

Re: Theranos CEO Says 'I Don't Know' 600+ Times in Deposition

#60

Post by kodablah » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #59

kodablah wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe this is true unless you are intentionally assuming all ventures are painted with the same brush. It's not true with self driving cars, med tech, or anything else having to do with human safety. Not only is there not one shared voice on these sites, even if you pretended there were it would not be in favor of faking it until you make it when human safety is involved. I think this subscribes to the more…

I'm not talking about advice given about ventures' viability, but to the people running them, who, like Holmes, might say, "gee, I'm in way over my head, I don't feel like I know what I'm doing" and are consistently told that everyone feels that way so it doesn't matter.

Yeah, about their little web service they are building. I don't think anyone, here or elsewhere much less the majority of them, would say that advice is globally applicable.