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Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

nytimes.com

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Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#201

Post by towaway1138 »

amvalo wrote: post #96

This article is credentialism at its worst. The best programmers I know are self-taught, because they have a passion for it. I know people working at minimum wage, never enrolled in college, who got decent programming jobs after a year or two learning CS on their own. These people will always (I hope) form the core of the profession.

> The best programmers I know are self-taught, because they have a passion for it.

This doesn't preclude getting CS degrees--that is often a part of that passion as well. But I agree that the best programmers would get there with or without it. And people who start programming in college are extremely unlikely to ever really get very good at it (in my experience).

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#202

Post by esoterica »

cs-holder wrote: post #174

Since when is being a software engineer a "high-status" job, as mentioned in the first paragraph? Most people would consider a non-washed out doctor or lawyer (which is expensive and difficult to achieve) as having higher status than pretty much anyone working with a CS degree, unless they are a successful founder or went into investments. Besides medicine/law, young people with some degree of privilege and ambition…

> Besides medicine/law, young people with some degree of privilege and ambition seem to go into banking, private equity or management consulting still.

The number of MIT/Stanford/Harvard kids running around the valley should disprove that point. As someone who attended a Goldman/McKinsey farm school, many of the prestige chasers who would in another era have gone to a bulge bracket are going to work for a FAANG or a unicorn instead because they do see tech as an appropriate substitute for a more traditional high prestige career.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#203

Post by ck425 »

goldenkey wrote: post #116
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is elitism at its worst. Even if you completely accept the validity of self-learning, there is still a place for formal education. Some people can learn a lot about a complicated field on their own, but there are still plenty of people who would benefit from some pedagogical help.

It's not elitism because learning how things work "under the hood" at the age of 20, when you've been using tech your whole life, it shows a lack of curiosity. Tech is inherently obfuscated, nail-biting debugging, and a crap ton of reverse engineering. CS is a subset of mathematics. Software development is a lifestyle and an ethos. No degree will provide that in full capacity like being a curious kid who wrote game m…

You really do need privilege. Not everyone has regular access to a computer or internet even these days. And not every is in an environment where it's considered ok to sit and tinker with software all day.

More importantly we need people in our industry who have interests beyond just tinkering with things all days. We need balanced individuals who have skills beyond just code, who can look at problems from a wide array of viewpoints. If we only hire hackers who have been coding since they were young we're hiring an incredibly narrow set of people while trying to solve problems for billions of people around the world. That's not efficient! It's good for our ability to solve problems that we expand the tech community to include diverse individuals, including folk who didn't code as kids.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#204

Post by verall »

el_cujo wrote: post #105

>Aafia Ahmad, a sophomore computer science major at U.T. Austin, had hoped to take an elective course in computer security this semester. But when she tried to sign up during early registration in November, the course was already full. I know this doesn't refute the point the article is trying to make, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that an underclassman might not get into a highly sought after elective.…

I attend UT Austin and it's pretty well known the CS school is particularly overcrowded, especially wrt lack of professors.

Its ranking went up a lot somewhat recently, so I think its a growing pains thing. ECE is a bigger major but we don't have the same problems because the department has been around longer and growth not so fast.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#205

Post by asdff »

el_cujo wrote: post #105

>Aafia Ahmad, a sophomore computer science major at U.T. Austin, had hoped to take an elective course in computer security this semester. But when she tried to sign up during early registration in November, the course was already full. I know this doesn't refute the point the article is trying to make, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that an underclassman might not get into a highly sought after elective.…

A couple of my friends in the CSE program (not at texas though) had to take on a 5th year due to the poor scheduling. Doesn't help that you have to apply to the program after you are already a freshman, so if you bomb a tough math or physics class your first semester you are set back pretty far and have to build up your GPA to even get into the major.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#206

Post by School-Cotton »

nradov wrote: post #149
School-Cotton wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to point out the underlying reason for this: a US high school diploma is absolutely worthless garbage, so you need to continue generalist studies in university to bring people up to the standard of other developed countries. E.g. someone with a French baccalauréat or enough British A levels can usually skip the first year or two of university in the US.

A US high school graduate with enough Advanced Placement classes can skip the first year of university (at least for public universities which accept those credits). But only well funded high schools can afford to offer that many AP classes.

Yeah, exactly. In France, getting a "baccalauréat général" (the high-school diploma leading to university studies) is optional, and not everyone does it. Just like AP tests are optional in the US.

There are two main differences.

Firstly, in France, this choice is available to everyone. Every student is able to go to a high school that offers it. It is not some unusual special thing that exists in rich neighborhoods.

Secondly, for people not enrolled in it, there are meaningful vocational options (bac technologique, bac professionel...), so they are still doing something useful. Contrast this to the US system, where your choice is between semi-serious academic work that kinda sorta approximates a European standard, and non-serious, waste of time babysitting.

This is because there's, for the most part, only one type of high school in the US. It's not split into academic vs. vocational. The US is one of the only countries in the world like this. I believe it expresses the idea that everyone has the ability to succeed if they try hard enough, so we shouldn't be sorting people into more and less prestigious tracks. This is a false myth, but it's so deeply implanted in the bedrock of American culture that saying common-sense things like "it's possible to figure out who the good students are well before age 18, and allocate resources appropriately" shocks a lot of people.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#207

Post by [deleted] »

hoaw wrote: post #72
gumby wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US university system is quite unusual (I believe Canada also has a similar system): at the undergraduate level you typically don't apply to a specific program; all students are expected to take a variety of classes (confusingly called "courses"), only some of which apply to a specific course of study. Domain-specialized classes become an increasing proportion of your overall classes after the first or second year…

I don't know about other countries, but for non-professional degrees in Sweden a program is essentially only a guarantee to be able to take certain classes. Otherwise you can take whatever courses you want, at whatever school you want, as long as you in the end fulfill the degree requirements. Which usually means half your bachelors are credits in the same subject.

[deleted]

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#208

Post by [deleted] »

hoaw wrote: post #72
gumby wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US university system is quite unusual (I believe Canada also has a similar system): at the undergraduate level you typically don't apply to a specific program; all students are expected to take a variety of classes (confusingly called "courses"), only some of which apply to a specific course of study. Domain-specialized classes become an increasing proportion of your overall classes after the first or second year…

I don't know about other countries, but for non-professional degrees in Sweden a program is essentially only a guarantee to be able to take certain classes. Otherwise you can take whatever courses you want, at whatever school you want, as long as you in the end fulfill the degree requirements. Which usually means half your bachelors are credits in the same subject.

[deleted]

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#209

Post by black-tea »

cs-holder wrote: post #174

Since when is being a software engineer a "high-status" job, as mentioned in the first paragraph? Most people would consider a non-washed out doctor or lawyer (which is expensive and difficult to achieve) as having higher status than pretty much anyone working with a CS degree, unless they are a successful founder or went into investments. Besides medicine/law, young people with some degree of privilege and ambition…

Yeah. Women aren't impressed by programmers.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#210

Post by nicoburns »

superhuzza wrote: post #134
jrochkind1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some universities hire non-tenure track instructors, with no research requirements, sometimes called "Lecturers". Of course, they are compensated horribly, so nobody wants to do that unless they have no other choice, and once you do that, good luck ever getting a tenure-track position. The whole academic job market is pretty dysfunctional. It's more interesting to look at the flawed ways universities have of measurin…

Just a warning for those who don't know, but this only applies to lecturers in certain countries. In the UK, a lecturer can do teaching, research and be a permanent, tenure-track position.

Yes, although I think we might be better off with some dedicated teaching positions. Especially for for some first and second year undergraduate courses where the material is pretty standardised.
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