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Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

nytimes.com

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Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#101

Post by azhenley »

AznHisoka wrote: post #44

"The university is looking to hire several tenure-track faculty members in computing this year, he said, but competition for top candidates is fierce. I know of major departments that interviewed 40 candidates, and I don’t think they hired anybody." That doesn't sound like fierce competition if they were able to interview 40 candidates... Did they give them all high-paying offers and they all rejected?

One of the problems is that a candidate might sit on an offer for a long time. The best candidates want to wait until the interview season is over to evaluate all their offers. On the other hand, some schools give one week deadlines on offers but any good candidate will turn those down.

It is hard on both sides. The entire process was about 6 months when I went through it, and I had offers expiring before I even finished all the onsites.

Disclaimer: I’m a CS prof at a R1 university in my first year.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#102

Post by Qworg »

alistairSH wrote: post #47
huffstler wrote: post #37

I made an account just to comment on this link as I have personal experience in the matter. I graduated from a relatively good school with a degree in Computer Science, yet wasn't admitted into the major until 2 weeks before graduation. I spent my entire college career in Computer Engineering while taking Computer Science courses and (thankfully) was able to complete the curriculum without actually being a part of it…

That's so strange. If there's room in the classes (as appears to be the case), why limit the number of majors? My school (UVA, in the late-90s) already had recently converted Computer Science as a limited enrollment major to get around this problem. Declared CS majors had preference for CS courses. It wasn't quite so bad that others were completely locked out, but if you weren't declared, you had to be quick to regis…

Very interesting! Early 2000s UIUC had it reversed - the BS was "practical CS" and the BA was highly mathematical/theory based.

Then again, despite being a top 5 program, it only received accreditation while I was attending.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#103

Post by Aeolun »

amvalo wrote: post #96

This article is credentialism at its worst. The best programmers I know are self-taught, because they have a passion for it. I know people working at minimum wage, never enrolled in college, who got decent programming jobs after a year or two learning CS on their own. These people will always (I hope) form the core of the profession.

I know people who have taught themselves for 2 years as well. They may be passionate, but that doesn’t necessarily make them great developers.

Since everybody and their mother currently needs developers, they’ll still be hired somewhere.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#104

Post by docbrown »

dunpeal wrote: post #95
jrochkind1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some universities hire non-tenure track instructors, with no research requirements, sometimes called "Lecturers". Of course, they are compensated horribly, so nobody wants to do that unless they have no other choice, and once you do that, good luck ever getting a tenure-track position. The whole academic job market is pretty dysfunctional. It's more interesting to look at the flawed ways universities have of measurin…

> Of course, they are compensated horribly Non-tenure track academic teaching positions that pay "horribly"... I can already imagine the kind of talent they attract.

>Non-tenure track academic teaching positions that pay "horribly"... I can already imagine the kind of talent they attract.

Honestly, as a former CC student, non-TT professors/lectures at the junior level were some amazing teachers. While they may only have a masters in their field, most of them are taking these jobs out of enjoyment as secondary income or after retirement.

Examples: One psych prof is a clinical child psychologist, teaches PT, highest evals in the dept.

Other psych prof, retired psychologist, head of CHARGE research, drove 45 minutes to teach PT

Social work prof, 20+ year professional, teaches PT, was a complete savior to her students.

Eng prof, trans, former Navy, journalist, taught PT.

Chem prof, retired, works at a local grocery store stocking fruit PT, lectures PT

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#105

Post by el_cujo »

>Aafia Ahmad, a sophomore computer science major at U.T. Austin, had hoped to take an elective course in computer security this semester. But when she tried to sign up during early registration in November, the course was already full.

I know this doesn't refute the point the article is trying to make, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that an underclassman might not get into a highly sought after elective. A lot of the "fun" electives when I was in school were little passion projects taught by one professor for one or two small sections a semester (or maybe only one semester per year), and while I agree it sucks that not everyone can take the classes, I wouldn't want them to die out because of complaints along the lines of "if you can't accommodate everyone, don't offer the course". Not that the article is saying that should be the case, I just worry that too many complaints about this kind of thing just puts pressure on the good professors who put enough effort into a class that a bunch of people want to take it.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#106

Post by docbrown »

detaro wrote: post #97
watwut wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tenure track implies research.

It does, but it's an interesting question why it always does. Knowing universities that lost their best lecturers because they insisted on a high-impact research record to consider giving them a permanent position, more flexibility in that regards looks like it'd be a good idea.

>it's an interesting question why it always does.

Not really. It’s a good question to ask but the answer is rather simple: R1 institutions stay afloat because of research grants; they need researchers to secure that grant $$.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#107

Post by rguzman »

throwawayjava wrote: post #93
rguzman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is one of the pathologies in academic institutions: they need teachers, but they evaluate researchers. the people who make the cut for researcher also have a lot of other options, and the institution ends up with an undersupply of teachers.

It's not pathological. Most universities have flirted with hiring non phds to teach. It can work, but there's a reason they prefer traditional candidates: thebfaikure rate is way lower.

the competition is often between people with phds. i am not 100% sure that a university teacher needs to have a phd, but it seems that even keeping that requirement, the present system is pathological. most people with phds do not make the cut for researcher, which leads to the university being short on teachers.

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#108

Post by Aeolun »

whatshisface wrote: post #84
gumby wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US university system is quite unusual (I believe Canada also has a similar system): at the undergraduate level you typically don't apply to a specific program; all students are expected to take a variety of classes (confusingly called "courses"), only some of which apply to a specific course of study. Domain-specialized classes become an increasing proportion of your overall classes after the first or second year…

> Of course the reality isn't quite as utopian. It also means professions like law and medicine require whole additional degrees. I kind of like the fact that in the US, doctors usually have some exposure to science outside of memorizing facts for their next test at med school. It makes them more likely to be able to understand studies, for one thing. I might hazard to guess that if you study philosophy before going…

Given the depth of knowledge that is generally imparted in 3 or 6 ECTS (average course length in europe, 75-150 hours of combined self/guided study) is fairly shallow, I’m not sure how much this would help the learner.

Maybe courses in the US are generally longer?

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#109

Post by electricslpnsld »

Wohlf wrote: post #55
AznHisoka wrote: post #44

"The university is looking to hire several tenure-track faculty members in computing this year, he said, but competition for top candidates is fierce. I know of major departments that interviewed 40 candidates, and I don’t think they hired anybody." That doesn't sound like fierce competition if they were able to interview 40 candidates... Did they give them all high-paying offers and they all rejected?

Competition must be fierce... at the level they want to pay.

95K a year for a starting professorship... or 3.5X that in total comp in industry. Not a terribly difficult choice!

Re: Hard Part of Computer Science? Getting into Class

#110

Post by arethuza »

alistairSH wrote: post #70
chrisseaton wrote: post #3

Why do US colleges over-admit like this? In the UK you apply to do a computer science course, and they have 50 places or whatever for that course, and so they admit 50 people. You can't get into the college and then be told that actually it's full. If they do accidentally over-admit it's their problem to solve, not yours.

Sibling comments mostly cover it. Outside of truly specialized professional programs (engineering, nursing, architecture), US colleges delay specialization until year 2 or 3. The other notable difference is an undergraduate degree in the US is typically a 4 year program. Many in the UK are 3 year programs.

The system is completely different in Scotland from the rest of the UK - undergraduate degrees are usually 4 years here rather than 3 years in rest of the UK.

This is largely based on the fact that admittance is done mainly done on what people do in 5th year of high school rather than 6th year A-levels.

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