Live data from Hacker News

When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

hiringengineersbook.com

511–520 of 694 posts

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the States is at will employment, and probation is standard practice where I am. It's rare that people fail probation; so long as you apply for work you are actually capable of doing...

Also the UK the first 2 years are effectively at will

Yes, I've learned that the hard way. Provided they give you payment in lieu of notice, they don't need much of a reason to let you go.

Myself and a co-worker were once let go for "performance reasons" at 10 months - just after project completion (successful). It was beyond my probationary period, and no issues where raised in the 2 performance reviews.

Their notice period was just 1 month. We were effectively cheap contractors.

My advice now is to treat offers with a low notice period (of them telling you) as a red flag. The norm is 3 months, after probation.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#512
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are architects supposed to write code? The example you give is embarrassingly simple and anyone should be (expected to be) able to write code for it. But aren't architects designing architecture. I don't think the architect or anyone in his team at my previous organization's IT dept could write code, but he could design system architecture.

I'm not sure if this is a common sentiment, but wouldn't an architect that does not know how to code have a very hard time convincing the other (seniors, but in particular juniors I guess) engineers to follow their designs? I guess it is possible to fake a while , but only a while...

I don't expect my architect to know the ins and outs of Go, I expect them to have a strategy that is forward thinking a few years out. Plans on cloud integration, ci/CD requirements, updating legacy systems to be containerized, managing kube clusters, etc. They should know the pros and cons related. They don't need to write a for loop.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#513
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

Equal problem: Trying to find the best chess player trough friendly conversation about chess.

We could talk all day, but I could not pick Magnus Carlsen over any other professional chess player in conversation. Worse. I can't even differentiate someone below my level from grandmaster level if they are huge chess enthusiasts.

If you want to find programmers who are better than you or rank people close to your level, only the actual work shows the differences. I can recognize someone who is better programmer than me only from the code they write.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#514
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you're maybe creating a straw man argument here. A smooth talking engineer isn't one who sounds like a used car salesperson or is just hyped about the latest trendy framework. There are people who can talk through challenging problems at their former companies and how the problems were solved. They can tell you everything you'd want to hear because it's true. Except…they didn't…

If they understand their friend's work deeply, doesn't that imply they've done something comparable themselves?

There is a huge gulf between being able to follow a thought path and being able to find it oneself. I couldn't do the same work in the same timescale as them, I wouldn't make the same decisions or spot the same pitfalls. I am simply not as good. But I spent a bunch of pub/work time discussing it and could project an aura of authority on the projects if I wished.

Look at it this way. I was able to understand all of the maths proofs taught at my degree, but I could not have come up with them myself.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ does correlate with work performance, and SAT tests are IQ tests. Brain teasers are an attempt at seeing how well/quickly your brain works to solve problems, is a rudimentary IQ test. The problem is that requiring IQ tests for employment introduces liability that employers do not want.

SATs are IQ tests? A large portion is math, and the other written language, both taught disciplines. You obviously haven't taken a real IQ test, which is more abstract and has a large portion of spatial geometry type questions.

At one point, MENSA would accept a high SAT score as a reasonable proxy for a high IQ.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that’s only true at four or five companiess at the most.... Especially if you’re married, I know a lot of developers whose spouses income goes straight into savings, investments, etc. but it’s another example of HN Silicon valley thinking that software engineering starts and stops at four companies. Married dual income couples especially can make out like bandits in any of those cities. I live in one of those cit…

I think the thing here is that cities are a better deal if you can command a top salary, and worse in most other situations. For example, talking about FANG, a senior position at Google (the lowest terminal level) comes with an average salary of $360k. Whereas someone who can get a senior position at Google is looking at your $135k (I get the feeling you're quite senior) or maybe a bit more in lower CoL areas. Even a…

How much would it cost to get a five bedroom, 3-1/2 bath newly built house in a top rated school system in Silicon Valley?

That’s easily affordable with one income, with a family making the median software developer wage. Any competent developer can pick up the phone, call a few local recruiters and have three or four offers in three weeks. Of course the pickings get slimmer the further to the right of the bell curve you go. But I do know developers who have been a lot more aggressive about their career a lot longer than I have and usually takes them two or three months to get jobs over the 80th percentile.

I picked $135K because that’s a pretty easy mark to hit if you have any negotiating skill, keep your eye on the market, and keep a warm network.

$160K+ is doable as an architect or an overpriced consultant working for a consulting company.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#517
post #53
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

> Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. I don't agree with this. I think the issue here is that your interviewers aren't going deep enough in the conversation. If you ask someone to tell you about some interesting technical project they worked on and they give a…

There have been instances where I have forgotten vocabulary that makes me seem knowledgeable about a project, but I have nevertheless done the work. I sound incompetent but I actually am competent.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#518
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the very best people we ever hired was so flustered in his final interview with us (a formality, after work-sample challenges) that he was visibly shaking during it. If we had taken the "numerous axes" on which the was "not a good sign" seriously, we'd have missed that hire --- and, I think, an entire business unit in our firm wouldn't have been started. I generally think software developers (I count myself am…

Of course that happens, but you're taking a real risk in hiring someone who can't get through the interview. I'd rather miss out on a good hire than make a bad one. You only have so many ways to determine whether or not someone is competent.

The only time people face the specific pressure of an interview is in an interview. I promise you, whatever generalization you're making doesn't hold.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#519
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you're maybe creating a straw man argument here. A smooth talking engineer isn't one who sounds like a used car salesperson or is just hyped about the latest trendy framework. There are people who can talk through challenging problems at their former companies and how the problems were solved. They can tell you everything you'd want to hear because it's true. Except…they didn't…

If they understand their friend's work deeply, doesn't that imply they've done something comparable themselves?

No, let me give a specific example. Imagine you're interviewing a candidate and they're talking through how to design an analytics service. They begin talking about e.g. database architecture, and how this type of data is most appropriate for a star schema. They start talking about the tradeoffs of row versus column orientation. They mention they'll need to do indexing for performance and talk about the index space versus query speed tradeoff. They say they'll do joins on the x and y tables.

Basically, they volunteer technical challenges they're aware of while simultaneously telling you what the high level solution is. But then you put a terminal in front of them and ask them to set up Postgres in a star schema with some dummy data, and then to write a query joining the two tables they were talking about before. Despite Postgres being on their resume, they'll completely flounder and not even know they need semicolons to terminate commands. Their joins won't just be wildly inefficient, they'll be syntactically incorrect and refuse to run. They won't be able to create, insert, select, truncate, drop, etc. They don't know how to create an index and can't mention any of the options for indexing, let alone the default provided by Postgres.

Keep in mind this example is just meant to be illustrative. Thinking through how to fix the scenario might not generalize to all the ways this can manifest. The kernel of how this arises is a person like so:

1. They read a lot about technical solutions at a high level. They can follow that if you have problem A then you need, roughly, solution B.

2. They have no contextual flexibility or practical foundation for understanding their solutions. They might have read Designing Data Intensive Applications, but they can't actually code and have never administered a database. To the extent they understood the book, they only internalized low hanging fruit.

3. They are charismatic, or ar least comfortable talking about technical topics. They will try to lead the conversation as much as possible, which is where you see them volunteering technical challenges and then offering solutions. But if you force them to answer heavy technical questions which drill deep into a specific area, they'll probably try to zoom back out.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the UK the first 2 years are effectively at will

Yes, I've learned that the hard way. Provided they give you payment in lieu of notice, they don't need much of a reason to let you go. Myself and a co-worker were once let go for "performance reasons" at 10 months - just after project completion (successful). It was beyond my probationary period, and no issues where raised in the 2 performance reviews. Their notice period was just 1 month. We were effectively cheap c…

Rather than just make you redundant on statutory terms - doing you on performance risks an industrial tribunal.
Post reply on HN