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When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

hiringengineersbook.com

391–400 of 694 posts

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#391
post #216

Isn't it just... mostly money? I mean, if you want to hire someone good, who presumably has a good job, you have to pay better than what they are getting now. I think this is probably especially true in Europe; I mean, as far as I know, people get like a 2x-4x raise moving to silicon valley from europe. If you pay more than your local competitors, you will largely have your pick of the candidates. I mean, yes, things…

>The money is pretty easy to judge, and as far as I can tell, total comp is a good 'honest signal' that I'm going to be treated in other ways. How much money they offer is a better indicator that I'll be treated well, in my experience, than anything anyone can say at an interview.

Eh, not in my experience. I've often seen it as an excuse to treat people poorly. As in "You're being paid a lot to put up with BS" and "Highly compensated shouldn't have excuses or whine." It also seems to correlate well with their trying to solve all legitimate work headaches with money.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The part I'm battling on it is if the current coding part selects against Java developers. Yes, it does. And let me put it this way: I've used C# and Java at most of my jobs, those theoretically would be my comfort languages, yes? I do not use those languages on interviews. I often just use C++ (!), or Rust (free unit tests!) if the company tools allow for it, or worst case I'd learn some Python basics. C#/Java are…

Interesting. To clarify, you are saying that these boiler-platey languages, it is not fair to write a unit test in a 45 minute time block with access to Google? I'm not a Java guy. All the languages I've used, this would not be an issue. Again, I'm wrestling with it because it I feel it should be easy but like 80% of our candidates who chose Java struggle with it.

It sounds like this is a pick-your-own-language type test. I'd suggest scoping down to one, or at most, two, simple allowable options that your team is already pretty comfortable handling.

I've been on the reviewer side of a handful of "choose your own language"-style take-homes recently and found that it's really not good for the candidate if they actually end up using something that wouldn't have been the interview committee's first or second choice. There have been cases where choosing a less-trendy-but-still-totally-viable toolkit has effectively disqualified a candidate, with several committee members not even considering it necessary to look at the code. This is very unfair and lame but an unfortunate reality. I asked that the test be changed to constrain the options at least to a list that wouldn't be immediately disqualifying.

You could advise the candidate ahead of the interview something along the lines of "you'll be asked to write a code sample in either Ruby or Python -- you'll have full access to Google, but you may want to brush up on the basics of these languages if you haven't used them recently".

This does two things: first, it prevents the issue you have, where you're essentially not sure if you're correctly scoring the samples produced. Secondly, it really requires you to constrain the problem to things that someone who has barely used language X or Y can do within 45 minutes.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#394
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If you can’t tell the difference between a smooth talker and strong technical competence you are probably interested in the wrong qualities. I have interviewed enough now to see why some companies cannot figure it out. Ask yourself if you really actually want a senior or a strong junior. It comes down to interest. A good senior got that way because they like solving challenging problems. They are not inte…

This is a good post. Have been in the UK startup environment it was crazy how many companies got funding but didn't had a strong senior in their software department. Because of this their hiring process was aimed to hire more "strong juniors" even tho they didn't realize it. A strong senior is a person who completely changes how you are even approaching the problem or someone who shows you problems you hadn't seen be…

> A strong senior is a person who completely changes how you are even approaching the problem or someone who shows you problems you hadn't seen before.

I think this is overstated. Disruption for the sake of it is often not that helpful in the context of the business (although, in fairness, you do go on to state they often see tech in that context).

I much prefer people who are delivery focused to those who are overly idealistic or want to change everything out of the gate: a good senior understands priorities and knows when to make a trade-off to live with a sub-optimal situation or solution in one area in order to deliver greater value elsewhere.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#395
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference being that the FAANG-type companies don't pay well enough to make up for the cost of living. Senior engineers seldom want to live in tiny apartments. See if you can prove me wrong: find a 10-acre lot within a half hour commute, with a large single-family home, that is affordable to a senior engineer. Alternately, make it 1 acre, but within a 5-minute commute.

A 10-acre lot is a ludicrous metric, and even 1 acre (for a residence) metric is unrealistic. I doubt most technical types even want the burden of upkeep for an acre+. At that point, the main thing you're buying is isolation.

Reading this thread, I find both sides at extremes - one side from the Valley who's quite out of touch with the rest of the country. And the other side that is putting a fairly high metric.

1 acre is not at all unrealistic. I work at a well known tech company and live in an area where you can afford acre (and multiacre) lots. While owning a 1 acre lot with house is certainly not the norm in the company, it is also not at all noteworthy. No one gets surprised when they hear someone owns one. It's seen very much as a preference thing. Some people like apartments, some townhouses, some houses, and some larger lots.

And yes, they're mostly "tech types".

More realistically, in most parts of the country, a tech job will get you a 2000+ sq ft house built no earlier than the 90's. And in many of those places, a short commute to boot. Now I know SV folks often talk about how they don't need a house that big or one that "new"[0], the reality is once you're outside and can afford one, you won't find a good reason to buy a 1960's house, or a 1200 sq ft one. The preferences of SV folks are really post hoc rationalizations.

[0] Many of my coworkers reject houses built in the 90's - it's too old for them.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#396
Hot take: many (most?) startups don't need talented senior engineers and won't even pay for them. They have products that do not have performance constraints or that would benefit from mastery of any one specific technology.

What startups need is engineers who can show up to work, understand requirements, point out potential shortcomings, write code on an approximate timeline and be willing to fix their mistakes. As it turns out, you don't always need a senior engineer to do that. You certainly don't need a 10x rockstar ninja engineer.

Where I've seen startups struggle in the past is fostering a culture of mentorship. When you're hiring fresh grads or people early in their careers, your employees will want someone to give them honest and personalized advice. It's pretty hard for people that are early in their careers to fill that role, so you may need some senior engineers to do that.

Overall, I think this article is a bit fanciful in the expectations it makes around recruiting. Sharing stuff like internal processes, team size etc are definitely helpful to the candidate but are costly to the employer. This information may be confidential or provide a competitive advance. They may also vary by team will definitely vary over time. Overall I think it's unrealistic to expect the company to be very forthcoming about this type of thing until they make the offer.

The interviewing stuff also seems to come from a good place but represents wishful thinking. Companies (even startups) hold significant leverage in 99% of interview situations and therefore are strongly inclined to err on the side of false negative. Their thought process goes like this: "sure, you may be amazing but because you're not willing to jump through my arbitrary hoops (6 hour coding exercise, 3 rounds of onsites, etc) I'm willing to hold out for someone who is equally as good."

I'm not saying any of this is good for the candidate, but it's unrealistic to expect companies to start to treat senior candidates any better given the way the labor market is set up. In fact, I'd expect this kind of treatment to get worse as the bumper crop of younger engineers trained in the late 2000s starts to level up in experience.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think that the only place software engineers work in the entire US is Silicon Valley? All of these cities have a better salary/cost of living trade off than SV. https://www.matrixres.com/salary-surveys

You may not be realizing that half or more of the compensation at the big SV tech companies is not salary. Total compensation of $300k or more is pretty standard for the public companies. Check levels.fyi to see examples. The benefits are also much better than I’ve seen elsewhere. I moved to SF from Raleigh because even after cost of living I earn significantly more (ie. put a lot more in savings every year) Housing…

And that’s only true at four or five companiess at the most....

Especially if you’re married, I know a lot of developers whose spouses income goes straight into savings, investments, etc. but it’s another example of HN Silicon valley thinking that software engineering starts and stops at four companies. Married dual income couples especially can make out like bandits in any of those cities.

I live in one of those cities and depending on how you classify me,I’m either somewhere above the median or well over the 75% percentile. Our nice big, new (comparatively) cheap house in the burbs is less than 20% of our take home pay. How much do you think we put aside in savings?

Because assortive mating is a thing - it’s statistically likely that two college educated people will end up getting married and I’m trying to keep this as generic as possible. If one was a software developer making $135K a year in one of those cities and the other was almost any college educated professional making $65K a year. The net of the lower paying spouse could pay off your nice house in the burbs in ten years or less.

I don’t know of any couple who is in that situation (and I know a few) who would think about moving to the west coast just for one spouse to make $300K when their combined income is already above $200K in a much less expensive area.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#398
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If you can’t tell the difference between a smooth talker and strong technical competence you are probably interested in the wrong qualities. I have interviewed enough now to see why some companies cannot figure it out. Ask yourself if you really actually want a senior or a strong junior. It comes down to interest. A good senior got that way because they like solving challenging problems. They are not inte…

This is a good post. Have been in the UK startup environment it was crazy how many companies got funding but didn't had a strong senior in their software department. Because of this their hiring process was aimed to hire more "strong juniors" even tho they didn't realize it. A strong senior is a person who completely changes how you are even approaching the problem or someone who shows you problems you hadn't seen be…

I think it's also important for seniors to look at new ideas at a regular basis. People who don't, tend to overrate the "good old [insert language/framework here]". You should not stop improving yourself, just because you are already able to get stuff done. (Example: Java introduced lambda functions in Java 8 and many Java seniors are still not using them)

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#399
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s not generally tolerated. You end up optimizing for sub-prime candidates because those are the only ones desperate enough to take 4-6 hours out of their free time for a company that hasn’t even bothered interviewing you, yet. If they want to turn the onsite into one big work sample, by all means, that sounds very effective (and something I’ve seen work well). But in my experience, you’re going to deter qualif…

Again: this is true of "work sample" tests in their mainstream implementation in our industry (spend 6 hours jumping through a hoop for the privilege of running a standard, nondeterministic interview gauntlet), and those hiring processes are a scourge. But there's a right way to do it: give work sample challenges and then, at least for the most part, end the technical qualification part of your process there . You sp…

I've only had one take home assignment task that really worked like that. I did pretty good at it and the interview.

I was co-owner of a startup at the time, the guy I interviewed called me up and said you did really good but I think you really don't want to work here - my wife said 'Wow, that guy was really smart' considering how some things went later it might have been better if I'd said no I really really do

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#400
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes perfect sense as is. It is almost my experience. A coworker of mine bought 11 acres. (That's one more than 10. These lots go to 11...) He has sheep and goats and chickens, and he can shoot his AR-15 in his yard. Interestingly, he grew up in San Francisco. His current lifestyle is ridiculously incompatible with his city of origin. I settled for a little 0.4 acre lot with a modest 3500 square foot house. (1619…

Meanwhile, here in Tokyo, a 100sqm lot goes for $700.000, an hour away from work. I can’t help but be a bit jealous, but it was really interesting to hear how different things can be.

Aren't things cheap if you go well to the west, almost to the coast and away from a rail station? Japan has rural areas. If people would live there, they could afford to have large families.
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