I'm shocked a landlord would willingly seek out this amount of legal liability.
Home Contents Insurance companies take note - these guys are asking for it.
Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
41–50 of 124 posts
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#42Is there any secure smart lock? I would want one because I'm away 3 months a year and it would simplify renting my apartment on airbnb when I'm away (especially with the rent I pay in HK) but I'm also rather worried about the security implications. And from my brief research, a lot of vendors have very little documentations about security. I would obviously only consider one that has a fallback to an actual key.
Define secure? A keyed tumbler lock can often be bypassed with a $10 kit and an hour's training via YouTube. Alternatively, without a frame reenforcement kit, a lock is bypassed with a strong kick.
Finding a software hack is probably the least of your worries.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just local RFID tokens without internet connection? If you use a system with properly secure tokens that's probably a relatively safe option. Same with key codes: internet management is not really needed for that. Of course access could be properly secured, but vendors have a really bad record of actually getting that right.
The tokens being secure is not enough. The system also has to check latency etc. to prevent repeater attacks. Imagine a scenario like that: You leave your car in a parking lot. One attacker follows you with a repeater. Once you're around the corner the second attacker approaches your car and opens it via the repeated radio signal and starts it. A while ago there had been a small debate on this topic, as attackers act…
A code repeater seems like a lot of work when standard tumbler locks are bypassed by a credit card, $10 lock pick set, a strong kick.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just local RFID tokens without internet connection? If you use a system with properly secure tokens that's probably a relatively safe option. Same with key codes: internet management is not really needed for that. Of course access could be properly secured, but vendors have a really bad record of actually getting that right.
The tokens being secure is not enough. The system also has to check latency etc. to prevent repeater attacks. Imagine a scenario like that: You leave your car in a parking lot. One attacker follows you with a repeater. Once you're around the corner the second attacker approaches your car and opens it via the repeated radio signal and starts it. A while ago there had been a small debate on this topic, as attackers act…
You can sidestep this if the token needs to be explicitly activated. Unlike turning a key in a mechanical lock this needn't be something that requires dexterity, just any positive action e.g. pressing a button.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#45Clearly it wouldn't be reasonable to impose a lower standard of safety and security than a non-smart lock. I don't think landlords would attempt to argue that principle.
The argument from them will be that smart locks do not regress security and safety.
Given the widespread and well known security problems with IoT devices across the industry, I think it'd be reasonable to demand assurances on this. For example, an audit trail provided to the resident for every unlock event and who authorised it, an agreement to immediately revert indefinitely to a physical lock at the landlord's expense if a vulnerability is discovered, and daily financial compensation for every day that the landlord fails to act on these mitigations.
Anything less than this I'd argue is a breach of contract, and any requirement that doesn't provide similar assurances would have to be by agreement by the tenant (ie. a new contract signed).
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#46Is it impossible to do this safely? Just like with my car, it would be really convenient when holding kids and a load of their stuff to not have to fish out the keys. I suppose there's the issue of your landlord locking you out if they're unhappy with something, but surely that is not purely a technological issue.
Car locks are one thing. They are hackable, but only in a very targeted and location-specific manner, basically the same risk as a physical key. But this is a centrally controlled system in which your landlord and a third party you have no control over are monitoring your movements and can remotely unlock the door via an Internet-connected device. So it's remotely monitorable and hackable. And since there's no physical presence required to monitor or hack it, it's actually a much bigger risk than remote car locks.
Also, cars are very different than homes. Typically we don't store truly valuable and irreplaceable items in our cars, unlike our homes. Typically we don't sleep in our cars, unlike our homes. You can easily see if someone is approaching your car, or trying to get in, when you are in it. Not necessarily the case with your home.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
In theory, yes, it's possible to do this safely. But offhand I can think of several horror stories about smart locks, and no good stories. The tech just seems absurdly immature at this point. And this product, in particular, is apparently known for glitching and not working, so...
On top of the software aspects many smart locks neglect the actual locking mechanism leaving the lock vulnerable to easy tricks like shimming. Smart locks also have to consider how they'll function without electricity. An exposed slot for a battery could let an attacker instantly fry the lock from the outside.
An exposed slot for a battery could let an attacker instantly fry the lock from the outside.
A long time ago I got drunk at my birthday party so my wife drove us back to the beach house we rented. She parked my car so that it was about five inches overhanging someone’s driveway.
Their driveway wasn’t blocked but it was a dick move and they retaliated by shaving off candle wax into my car’s door locks. Fortunately I always used remote unlock but back then most people still used physical keys to unlock their car.
People can mess or destroy any lock. There are legitimate concerns about electronic locks for sure but I don’t understand setting the bar so much higher for them than mechanical locks.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
In germany, landlords are not entitled to have a copy of your flats key and they're not entitled to enter the apartment at their will unless there's an emergency. They can ask for a visit a reasonable time in advance and you might have to comply, but then it's still you opening the door.
So...the same then. In the UK the landlord is not entitled to the copy of the key either.
When I was a student I almost attacked a strange guy I found creeping around our flat at night - turned out it was the landlord!
Citizen's Advice confirmed he had no right to be there without our permission.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#49Is there any secure smart lock? I would want one because I'm away 3 months a year and it would simplify renting my apartment on airbnb when I'm away (especially with the rent I pay in HK) but I'm also rather worried about the security implications. And from my brief research, a lot of vendors have very little documentations about security. I would obviously only consider one that has a fallback to an actual key.
Define secure? A keyed tumbler lock can often be bypassed with a $10 kit and an hour's training via YouTube. Alternatively, without a frame reenforcement kit, a lock is bypassed with a strong kick. Finding a software hack is probably the least of your worries.
Technically savvy people can think of lots of ways to overcome technology. It’s easy to get hung up on the problems with something new while ignoring the problems of current systems.
In addition to what you said, people often leave mechanical locks unlocked on at least one or more windows or doors. People often have easily broken glass on their doors. It’s commonly said that most locks are “courtesy locks” because they’re so easy to defeat. So I don’t understand many of the security concerns surrounding electronic locks. Privacy and failure concerns I can understand though.
Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
The tokens being secure is not enough. The system also has to check latency etc. to prevent repeater attacks. Imagine a scenario like that: You leave your car in a parking lot. One attacker follows you with a repeater. Once you're around the corner the second attacker approaches your car and opens it via the repeated radio signal and starts it. A while ago there had been a small debate on this topic, as attackers act…
A code repeater seems like a lot of work when standard tumbler locks are bypassed by a credit card, $10 lock pick set, a strong kick.
According to that wired article the repeater is $10 as well and lockpicking needs a little practice and skill, using a repeater not. :)