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Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious - which is a more profitable relationship, the agencies or serving a mid-sized business directly? I imagine there's a longer selling cycle for the mid-sized business, offset by higher pricing? Which group is harder to serve? (eg. more iterations and drama inserted into the job vs. shaking hands, getting it done, and getting paid)

Agency work is less profitable and higher hassle. They tend to want to “manage the project” and many of them do it rather poorly. My sales cycle is very short. I usually close the sale in the first meeting - or walk away knowing that a PO is imminent. Or I finish that meeting knowing that there’s no real opportunity there. Over many years I’ve developed a pretty good instinct of what is an opportunity and what isn’t,…

> Agency work is less profitable and higher hassle.

I agree with the first part, but disagree with the second. Rather, partially disagree. Most agencies are inept. There are some out there that run a very tight ship and it is a pleasure to work for them. They tend to be larger and have a system for handling contractors.

That said, since it's always less profitable, you're always better off having your own clients.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#92
post #21

Most of the value these websites were providing has been supplanted by various other services. I no longer need to scour through some crappy website for opening times etc. because it's on Google Maps, even a photo of the menu on Google Maps is a much better experience than any restaurant website I've ever visited. If the site needs interaction with customers it's probably better off with Facebook or WhatsApp.

This. I used to do a lot of web site development. Certainly for larger organizations there is still a need. But for small commercial or retail concerns, there's little reason to not rely on social media for all of your web marketing. It used to bother me when I found a company by Googling and found that Google directed me to Facebook and there was not other web site. It doesn't bother me any more - I get it.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#93

I think web-design in the SMB market is completely commoditized between website builders and even CSS toolkits like Bootstrap lowering the barrier to entry. I barely know CSS and will just buy a $20 design from wrapbootstrap and the client doesn't care. Anything related to web-design should be a side-effect of the true product you're selling, which in your case should be web-based software application development (IM…

> The kind of clients you want to work with will pay this without blinking. Sometimes they won't even know about the bill because it goes straight to AP. I agree #3, but on #2 - I've never dealt with any business of individual who operated like a blank check ("just send the bill to AP"). They all have budgets - implicit or explicit - and all want a rough idea of range at the very least. Is this a $3k project or a $20…

You're right on #2.

To clarify, any clients I have that behave that way are firmly out of the SMB segment (or have grown to that point as we have worked together), seem to be in cash-flow heavy industries like manufacturing or construction, and we've been working together for several years.

I think you made the point I was going for - it may be more hassle than it's worth to do work for a client that makes a fuss over $2200 vs $2000.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#94
If your a decent programmer, then "web development" is below you - I mean marketing web site development like done in WIX or in Facebook. If you want to write code, there's more interesting and lucrative work in the B2B transactional and business intelligence work. Web sites built around APIs are also interesting

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#95
I started out my career building these sorts of websites, making $3000 Wordpress custom themes. The secret sauce was my lead source who had super developed business sense and social skills, and went out and wined and dined clients and sold them these sites. He went on to build an agency and I was the first freelancer he hired. I'm pretty sure he was pitching wide reaching marketing and strategy help to these clients, and a website was just one part of that.

If a business just wants to make a simple website themselves, I see absolutely no reason not to just use Squarespace or equivalent. I agree with others in this thread that this kind of website has become completely commoditized when taken in a vacuum.

I've done much better as a solo freelance software developer doing webapp development - Django/Vue is my current stack of choice but any full stack can work. The advantage this has over building design-heavy sites for small businesses is that this kind of dev still has a long way to go before being commoditized, and in general is worth north of $100/hr.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#96
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! And after doing wordpress for a while, I can't imagine getting even close to that. Are you hiring or looking for someone to throw some projects his way. I can be of help.

I am. Do you have a portfolio?

Not op, but a full-stack web consultant with 7y+ experience. You can check some of my work out at https://nmn.gl/.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's quite an income for Wordpress sites. Well done! If you don't mind my asking a couple questions: 1. Are you based in an urban area like SF or NYC? 2. How long did it take you to build up your clientele?

1. Windsor, Ontario, Canada is where I am based and most of my clients are, though I do have customers here and there all over North America. One is based in Nunavut, Northwest Territories, Canada. Now THAT is far north. 2. Several years. First couple were tough. I took a 66% pay cut on Year 1 from my role as a senior developer at a Fortune 50 company. I should add - I’ve never met about 30% of my customers in person…

What kind of companies are your clients?

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#98

I think web-design in the SMB market is completely commoditized between website builders and even CSS toolkits like Bootstrap lowering the barrier to entry. I barely know CSS and will just buy a $20 design from wrapbootstrap and the client doesn't care. Anything related to web-design should be a side-effect of the true product you're selling, which in your case should be web-based software application development (IM…

Some of my favourite projects have been very similar to the ones you described, basically technical webapps that help improve internal workflows. Been focusing on that and offering "quick" MVPs for the past few years.

However, finding such clients seems to be extremely difficult. Is there any advice you might have?

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#99

I started out my career building these sorts of websites, making $3000 Wordpress custom themes. The secret sauce was my lead source who had super developed business sense and social skills, and went out and wined and dined clients and sold them these sites. He went on to build an agency and I was the first freelancer he hired. I'm pretty sure he was pitching wide reaching marketing and strategy help to these clients,…

I've been doing something similar with Express / Vue. Glad to see a lot of comments here concurring with webapp development, the same thing that I naturally ended up doing. I'm always for the look out for more such clients, do you have any advice on how to do that better?

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#100
I run a business that does outreach for agencies and can attest to the fact this there is still PLENTY of opportunity building sites for small business. We were "throwing so many fish back in the water" that had too little budget...but they had SOME budget so we spun out a business for that. I am a terrible WordPress programmer and only a moderate designer but even I make nice income from this division of our business. We build a 5 page brochure site for $1500 then charge $100/month for security and hosting . It adds up fast.

Soft skills are crucial, building a referral network is crucial.

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