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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#991

Post by growlist »

crooked-v wrote: post #697
growlist wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, the EU starts thinking pragmatically and offers a proper deal.

The shitty deal is pragmatic for the EU, as it makes it obvious to all the countries involved that they can't get the benefits of the EU without being part of (and paying money into the governance of) the EU.

Clearly it wasn't that smart as it raises the chance of no deal, which would hurt the EU more than the UK. Barnier was certainly looking a bit frazzled today! Theresa May's mistake was to think she could negotiate with the EU in a civilised manner, when the only thing it understands is brutality.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#992

Post by Paradigma11 »

asabjorn wrote: post #730
mirimir wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing against a strawman. So do you think that nations don't intervene covertly in other nations? What about the US in Iran (1953) or Chile (60s)? And so why is it so improbable that Russia is doing it? And recall the study by Prof. Igor Panarin (former KGB analyst) predicting that the US will fragment. Maybe it's more like a game plan.

I am just observing. It’s very impressive for Russia to be the essential force behind all major opposition movements that apparently are not rooted in legitimate concerns.

It's not really that surprising considering Russia has a century long supremacy in this area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures

Nowadays it seems to lack some of the professionality of former times and sometimes looks more like hobby projects of Kremlin figures and Oligarchs to curry some favour.

Tradition, local competency, low cost and risk due to social platforms and online news make it a good fit for present day Russia.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#993

Post by robin_reala »

Wildgoose wrote: post #986
robin_reala wrote: post #872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don’t remember the remain campaign being taken to court over lies, or being fined for such. Could you link to those occurrences?

There are plenty of examples if you bother to search, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41649995 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42411144

Thanks! I did look but couldn’t find anything, probably because I was looking for fines for lying to voters rather than campaign finance problems, but yeah that’s not great.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#994

Post by bromuro »

rmc wrote: post #929
mattmanser wrote: post #899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of 27 people negotiating, all with very different agendas, versus one person with a clear agenda. Why do you believe that the EU would be in a better position? It's like a rat king when it comes to negotiating, 27 countries pulling in different directions all with different desires.

Because the EU has a lot more to offer than the UK alone.

The UE? I see just countries struggling with their own economies, and fighting against UE austerity rules.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#995

Post by mattmanser »

rmc wrote: post #929
mattmanser wrote: post #899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of 27 people negotiating, all with very different agendas, versus one person with a clear agenda. Why do you believe that the EU would be in a better position? It's like a rat king when it comes to negotiating, 27 countries pulling in different directions all with different desires.

Because the EU has a lot more to offer than the UK alone.

It also has a lot wider range of industries to protect, so if the UK would be happy in scrapping food subsidies to let African food be competitive in our markets, but other countries like France want to retain subsidies for protectionism of their farmers, it's no dice.

That scenario is exactly what happened in the Doha Development Round.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Development_Round

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#996

Post by johanek »

ceejayoz wrote: post #230
johanek wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's never been a MP, UKIP has never been considered a "major party" (how is this even defined?), there was no election in 2014, UKIP won 12.6% in 2015. He's clearly representing some people but your facts are way off.

Sorry, I was mistaken on the MP front. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_United_Kingdom_local_elec... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_European_Parliament_elect... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party#Entering... "In March 2014, Ofcom awarded UKIP "major party status"." https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/media/media-rele... "Ofcom’s initial view is that UKIP may qualify for major party stat…

That's very interesting about the official "major party status", thanks for sharing that. I was only considering General Elections, which are a fairer representation of a parties vote share (despite FPTP) as not all councils vote in local elections each year.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#997

Post by sievebrain »

rswail wrote: post #983
sievebrain wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that food and medical supplies will disappear is completely wrong and has already been debunked by, amongst other people, the head of the NHS. This is especially true because being in the EU actually increases food costs due to the common external tariff. The only reason food imports would slow is if the government wanted them to, which it doesn't. The illogical and ridiculous predictions that somehow the on…

> The UK survived the rest of Europe trying to literally conquer it. I don't think you understand the literal meaning of "literally". The UK chose to join the EU. It has chosen to leave. That means it will have to comply with the rules the EU has for nations not part of the EU. For some reason, the Brexiters seem to follow the "Fog in Channel, Continent cut off" idea that the UK has control over what the EU has to ac…

What do you think WW2 was exactly, if not a literal attempt to conquer it?

You're arguing with a straw man. Nobody claims the EU had to do anything, it can ban people who live there from buying British things if it wants. But the idea that this will cause food and medicine shortages is simply silly - the rest of the world manages to buy these things without being in the EU so why does this story keep being promoted?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#998

Post by PaulRobinson »

djmobley wrote: post #354
PaulRobinson wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complicated topic, but a short and overly basic version: There are many people in the UK - as in the US, as in most of the West, actually - for whom neoliberalism has not been kind. They see immigrants getting jobs and struggle to make ends meet and have been told via various right wing media outlets (in the UK, principally the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers), that there are…

As you say, it's a complicated topic. > However the UK gets far more economic benefit than it spends, and the poorest of communities like South Wales have had far more spent on it in targeted social programmes by the EU than has ever been spent by Westminster. The UK contributes more to the EU budget than it receives back. Ceteris paribus, the UK could fund all the same programmes, and have huge buckets of cash left…

I said "economic benefit". Not "cash".

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#999

Post by sitkack »

lurquer wrote: post #960
dTal wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point. The point is that 1) overnight disruption of existing supply chains is very likely, and 2) in today's last-minute food supply infrastructure, it only takes a few days for shelves to empty. Empty shelves = hungry people = riots. So it's not a question of whether the US will trade with the UK, in the long run. It's a question of whether, 2 days after a hard Brexit, everyone has been well-o…

Think this through. If there is a hard Brexit, the only hinderance to goods coming INTO the UK is the UK. Do you really think the UK will stop or hinder food imports to such an extent that there are "empty shelves" and "riots"? The economic concern of a hard Brexit isn't the imports, but the exports. There might be significant economic disruption if the EU slows down trade of items coming INTO the EU and OUT OF the U…

Lots of faces cut of their own noses.

Have you worked with bureaucrats? They won't view it as stopping, but rules and paperwork need to be filed. If processes are followed stuff will flow, but there will be a flow stopping shockwave propagating backward at the rate of tps-1c.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#1000

Post by sitkack »

noja wrote: post #710
jpfr wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody will try to get as much food over the border as possible. Everybody will work together. The EU, the UK, the US, everybody. But this could still go very very bad. What do you think "chaos at the border" means? Every truck, train and ship has to get the papers checked where they could just drive through before. But there are not enough qualified officers to actually check all the papers. So goods will come in…

> But there are not enough qualified officers to actually check all the papers. Starve (and therefore internal anarchy) versus upholding a paperwork check? The papers won't be checked.

This isn't how things play out. The papers will stop being checked after the riots have started. But will continue to be checked when there are just long lines. Bureaucracies react to things that are actually occurring, not things that will occur.
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