Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament • Hacker News Board

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#691

Post by InclinedPlane » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 4:59 AM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #70

All I can think of is, why? I don't know what were the main points against the deal, but the only reason I can think of that the deal is rejected is that Corbin, or whoever else would come out of this kerfuffle victorious, wants to re-issue vote on leaving the EU in order to stay..? This is insanely puzzling to me, and very much unexpected. Can someone ELI5..? Or maybe ELI15 would be enough.

This is not an insane puzzle, it's very, very simple.

"Brexit" is possible, but it would be in all cases disastrous for Britain. This is obvious. But Brexiters don't want a real-world Brexit they want a fantasy land Brexit where they have every single benefit of being part of Europe and the EU but they want to be able to ignore any obligations "imposed" upon them by that very advantageous relationship. This is, of course, a childish and unreasonable position, nevertheless a great many people were convinced that it was really quite reasonable or that at least that voting for Brexit was a show of solidarity representing British Independence and Strength and yadda yadda yadda, etc. Unfortunately for them, a majority of voters were fooled into voting for Brexit, causing it to pass out of the fantasy realm where it was a meaningless signal of political beliefs into the realm of reality where it will be an unmitigated clusterfuck of epic proportions if it is carried off. Indeed, I suspect if a second referendum were held the following week after the Brexit vote, with the restriction that only those who voted in the first could vote in the second, it would have gone down in flames.

The complication here is that the current party in power, Theresa May's coalition, has a very tenuous hold on that power. They know that if there are new elections they are out. And May knows that if she doesn't kowtow to the Brexiter minority in parliament then her coalition will crash and burn. So she's trying to hold onto power (until 2022) by going through the motions and doing the best she can without any possible clue how to actually get through this mess.

Which comes back to the core problem again. The majority (now) do not want a Brexit. While the Brexiters want "Brexit, but good for Britain" which is an impossibility.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#692

Post by kodablah » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:00 AM UTC

justaguyhere wrote: post #682

microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

This form of condescension Absolutely not trying to be condescending, apologies if I came across that way. Personally, I am just pained that voters who live in countries where democracy still works, do not take it seriously - that includes not spending time and effort to educate themselves with at least the basics of the issues they are voting on. Imagine living in countries like Russia, Zimbabwe, Turkey etc - where…

> I am not being snarky or condescending - I am just frustrated that voters don't spend a bit of effort to educate themselves before voting.

Maybe many do and you're just wrong about whether they educated themselves? Maybe many of them are more educated about the issue than you are yet don't feel as required to shout how dumb the other side is from the rooftops. That you assume ignorance of those you don't understand and then say they should educate themselves as though there is an objective right answer is both snarky and condescending.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#693

Post by smileypete » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:01 AM UTC

justaguyhere wrote: post #677

smileypete wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

What really helped the leave vote was not so much shadowy influences but the attitude of the EU. 1. Can you explain the "attitude of the EU" part? 2. If the EU is that bad, why aren't other countries holding referendums and leaving the EU? Why is only the UK making so much noise? I am not European, so my knowledge on this matter is pretty small. Honestly curious, not being snarky etc.

>1. Can you explain the "attitude of the EU" part?

They want to centralise power more and more, and seem completely oblivious to their own mistakes.

Just an odd example - make fuel from a food crop grown in tropical jungle areas, to save CO2? No surprises how that turned out...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#694

Post by fastball » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:02 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #688

I’m cautiously optimistic. Brexit is about national sovereignty. You need look no further than the US to see that mega-states don’t work. The EU was supposed to be a trade confederacy, but is beginning to co-opt the sovereignty of the constituent states. That, as the US experience has shown, may lead to economic success, but also leads to people who feel disenfranchised and dissatisfied with a distant, ever-expanding…

Mega-states can work as long as you have your priorities in order and understand the need for decentralized governance. But unfortunately, both parties in the US have been gunning for a bigger and bigger federal government for the past couple decades.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#695

Post by nearbuy » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

yholio wrote: post #87

gonehome wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense. Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

I often hear the refrain that, "democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried". But how many forms have actually been tried? As far as I know, every country is either a democracy or an autocracy.

Maybe it could be better phrased as, "Democracy is better than autocracy, and we think it's crazy to try anything else".

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#696

Post by Aeolun » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:10 AM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #661

yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

> The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. The EU is not being asked to accept any trade deal at all (hence no deal).…

As far as I understand it. It won’t be an immediate catastrophe, it’ll just slowly leech the UK influence worldwide and in Europe.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#697

Post by crooked-v » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:13 AM UTC

growlist wrote: post #498

crooked-v wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the only way to get the "economy is stable" result in the short term is to stay in the EU, or to make a deal that's effectively "stay in the EU, but also lose all political power in the EU".

Or, the EU starts thinking pragmatically and offers a proper deal.

The shitty deal is pragmatic for the EU, as it makes it obvious to all the countries involved that they can't get the benefits of the EU without being part of (and paying money into the governance of) the EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#698

Post by gpvos » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

smileypete wrote: post #675

justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

The UK already had so many opt-outs and rebates compared to all other members, there really wasn't that much room for more concessions, certainly not of the type that the UK "leavers" wanted.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#699

Post by rdm_blackhole » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:20 AM UTC

I guess one thing that many people are missing is why the "leave" vote won in the first place.

If Europe is so great why did some people had the desire to leave it?

Surely they were not all brainwashed or lobotomized?

The EU is now trying to make the UK pay an extraordinary price in order to warn the other countries that leaving the EU is not a choice to be taken lightly.

This kind of technique is known as bullying and that's as simple as it gets.

If the EU leaders were smart they would have used this opportunity to try to reform the EU and make it into what they promised their citizens.

There was a time when politicians said that the EU was going to bring prosperity, safety and so on and so forth?

Where are all those promises now?

The EU has had low economic growth for the last 15 years, high unemployment, flooded by migrants, non-stop terrorist attack, an ever smaller middle class, and ever-increasing taxes that are used to pay the salaries of technocrats like Juncker who was one of the guys who organized fiscal evasion on a scale never imagined.

Who is this guy by the way? He is not even fucking elected yet somehow he represents Europe?

Europe is not the democratic utopia that was sold to the people.

It certainly has not delivered on its promises and now it faces a backlash from its citizens.

I hope Brexit happens because if it succeeds it will show that another way is possible.

European technocrats can eat my shorts!

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#700

Post by NeedMoreTea » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:23 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #684

smileypete wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

What did you expect them to do? The UK wants to leave, so lets give them some concessions to soften their stupidity? From the start the only one with any kind of power in the negotiations was the EU.

More a case of UK politicians not doing their job.

What do I expect them to do? Act solely in the interests of their pay packet and party. What should they do? Act in the interests of the nation. That was once supposed to be the point.

They could have sought concessions or adjustments from the EU as precursor to a second referendum. The few times another EU nation has rejected a treaty or some aspect of the Union there's been something of a renegotiation and a second referendum.

Since the ridiculous Fixed Parliaments Act there needs to be a super-majority to call a UK election early. Why not with a referendum for a change of such consequence?

Were the EU not such a divisive issue, for the whole 40 years of our EU membership, within the Tory party, they might have approached the issue with a little more honesty. It could all have SO easily been avoided.