The elite that failed • Hacker News Board

Re: The elite that failed

#61

Post by toyg » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #60

toyg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The elite want to be in the EU Does that mean Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Jacob Reese-Mogg, Michael Gove and their friends are not "elite"? In that case, I don't think that word means what you think it means. The truth is that there are bits of elite on both sides, and that humanizing a social class is just a propaganda trick.

>Does that mean Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Jacob Reese-Mogg, Michael Gove and their friends are not "elite"? Well, with the possible exception of Farage, these people wanted to remain. They just wanted to posture and score political points. Which is why they all panicked when the referendum went the way it did.

The only one of those who had serious doubts was Boris Johnson, and he built a career on writing lies about the EU when he was a journalist. JRM has always been a hard leaver. Farage has always been a hard leaver. Arron Banks has always been a hard leaver. I could go on listing 90% of the Leave campaign from a wealthy background, but I have stuff to do.

The Tories, who are the natural party of the elite, have been deeply split on this subject since the 70s. That’s why we’re even having this argument in the first place.

Re: The elite that failed

#62

Post by votepaunchy » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 11:38 AM UTC

benmmurphy wrote: post #34

kuhhk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we are still in the EU Ben, I hope you do realize your premise changes in roughly ~10 weeks, unless something extraordinary happens. Theresa is determined to leave..

I actually think this is unlikely. I actually I hope it happens because I think the EU is a long term con. Basically the EU is holding free trade as a hostage. Free trade offers great benefits but the EU as an institution can continue to force a greater political union on the countries forming the union even if this political union is not to the benefit of these countries. We are seeing it right now with the Brexit n…

> Surely, if you considered a hard brexit an option you would be actively negotiating bilateral and free trade agreements with other countries.

Britain cannot negotiate new trade agreements until they have actually departed the EU.

Re: The elite that failed

#63

Post by timwaagh » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

how is it a failure? they are in power. all a politician should care about is getting into power and remaining in power (and gracefully exiting gracefully before people shoot you out) they promised a referendum because that's what people wanted in order to vote for them. success #1.

they held the referendum and accepted the result, based their policy on it, because that was people had voted for. the result was winning an election and clinging to power. success #2.

perhaps the new leader of the tories will do things differently and ignore the referendum, but that will only be a succcess if he manages to win the election. but to me it seems unlikely that will be a succesful strategy especially with that corbyn dude breathing down your neck. papers like the economist tend to dismiss him as an extremist, but he's a man with an affinity for populism and a serious problem for the tories.

apparantly chooosing your schoolmates to be your running mate is the recipe for success in politics. perhaps power is all about whom you can trust. maybe boris johnson is an idiot, but he is someone who has affinity for the common man, she knows him from way back and she knows he would not stab her in the back. that makes him a rather useful idiot.

Re: The elite that failed

#64

Post by toyg » Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

throw564d wrote: post #50

toyg wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You equate a target (EU membership) as the criteria for failure, whereas the failure is in the approach to the problem itself, regardless of outcomes. A decent elite would not have gambled away the future of the country just to get rid of a couple of party rivals (2016) or to keep a schizophrenic party together (2019). In both cases, machinations were set in motion in a completely careless way, with an outrageously c…

I'm sick of people saying it is inevitable that Brexit will be a failure. Do you have a crystal ball?

Pretty tired also of deliberately provocatory trolls with no reading-comprehension skills. Please point out where I said brexit will be a failure, or GTFO.