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The elite that failed

economist.com

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Re: The elite that failed

#51

2016: brexit vote indicates failure of elite 2019: failure to ratify vote indicates failure of elite pick one

Holding the referendum was a failure of David Cameron. He tried to use the referendum to shut up a wing of his party. He should have picked a different tool, or else just ignored them. The wording of the referendum, the non-specificity of it, was an additional failure. Then Cameron failed in that the referendum passed. This was the opposite of shutting up that wing of his party. He should have campaigned for Remain,…

Ignoring the largest vote ever in British history because you just know better than the plebs doesn't smell too good either.

Re: The elite that failed

#52
post #38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems of the EU were well known among educated persons well before the Maastricht treaty was even signed. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastricht-and-al...

And that's just another data point that shows incompetence. The Maastricht treaty took away fiscal and central banking tools that governments could use and replaced them with... nothing. That just proves my point here.

Indeed. I am agreeing with you and supporting your perspective.

Re: The elite that failed

#53

The law of the universe dictates that our world is always moving toward entropy (chaos) no matter what, and things will keep getting more and more chaos everyday. These so called "elite" politicians are after all just homo sapiens, thus limited by human capabilities. They are nothing more special than you and me. Nobody really has any fucking clue what's going on or how to fix it. Nobody has been more wrong throughou…

Anomie and omni/suicidal destruction are only a self-fulfilling prophecy only if you subscribe to, and reinforce, learned helplessness as you appear to with a chicken-little "let's do nothing because it doesn't matter" or "it's someone else's problem" argument.

Re: The elite that failed

#54
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we are still in the EU Ben, I hope you do realize your premise changes in roughly ~10 weeks, unless something extraordinary happens. Theresa is determined to leave..

I actually think this is unlikely. I actually I hope it happens because I think the EU is a long term con. Basically the EU is holding free trade as a hostage. Free trade offers great benefits but the EU as an institution can continue to force a greater political union on the countries forming the union even if this political union is not to the benefit of these countries. We are seeing it right now with the Brexit n…

I stopped reading once you made a distinction between “tariffs” and “politics”: you don’t have one without the other. You have a common market only if you can agree common rules, and you agree common rules with shared political institutions.

You cannot buy chlorine-washed chicken in the EU because EU countries agreed that, in order to be able to freely trade chicken in the union, chicken should have certain qualities - qualities defined through a political process.

The EU is simply a place where all the stuff that used to get done with slow and opaque bilateral treaties or with wars, now gets done mostly in the open, faster and more democratically than before. It doesn’t “hold free trade hostage”, it’s actually the opposite: it takes free trade to its eventual consequences. Everything is free to trade, all the time; but to do that, we must agree on common standards to make, sell, buy, and consume all stuff - it wouldn’t be fair competition, otherwise, right?

So we built a process to write these rules together. Once we have rules, we need ways to enforce them and amend them - which happen to be useful to also sort out other pesky issues like borders and to foster collaboration in various endeavours. And if all products and services can be freely moved across the market, why shouldn’t people be allowed to do the same?

That’s the EU, in a nutshell; built on and for commerce. Trying to unpick trade from the rule-writing is nonsensical.

Re: The elite that failed

#55

The law of the universe dictates that our world is always moving toward entropy (chaos) no matter what, and things will keep getting more and more chaos everyday. These so called "elite" politicians are after all just homo sapiens, thus limited by human capabilities. They are nothing more special than you and me. Nobody really has any fucking clue what's going on or how to fix it. Nobody has been more wrong throughou…

> The law of the universe dictates that our world is always moving toward entropy (chaos) no matter what,

Unless you put in energy, which this glowing thing in the sky seems to do quite well and human civilization has also been quite good at. Furthermore, entropy is not the same thing as chaos and does not fit into the picture you are painting. For instance a random Gaussian distribution of wealth has much higher entropy than the very ordered distribution where 1% of the population has almost all the wealth.

> Nobody has been more wrong throughout the history than those expert economists.

Plenty people have been more wrong, e.g. the Great Leap Forward.

Re: The elite that failed

#56
post #52
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's just another data point that shows incompetence. The Maastricht treaty took away fiscal and central banking tools that governments could use and replaced them with... nothing. That just proves my point here.

Indeed. I am agreeing with you and supporting your perspective.

One of the things I realized watching this was this stuff probably holds together in the US because.

Federal Social Insurance programs, Social security, Unemployment, food stamps, and other transfer payments. These substitute for states inability to print their own money. and set exchange rates or control the flow of capital.

The Banking system is backstopped by the Federal Reserve not individual states. See Texas and California during the S&L crisis.

And the lack of tribal attitudes. Europeans think Greeks need to pay back all the money their government borrowed from French and German Banks. No one in the US really feels that way about Puerto Ricans.

Re: The elite that failed

#57
post #16

Perhaps if the Brexit referendum required 66% or some other supermajority, this would not be so hard to make happen. I don't know enough about Brexit to know whether I would be in the leave or remain camp if I was allowed to vote in the referendum, but I do know that they screwed up in the beginning by making this massive decision only need 50% + 1 vote in order to be passed. However, since those were the rules of th…

The required acceptance level is one factor. But I guess an even more important factor is the „what are we actually voting for“ question.

I‘d have solved this by having two votes, one to start a negotiation about the exit terms. And then a second one, once an agreement on the terms has been reached. That way, everyone can know ehat they are actually voting for.

Re: The elite that failed

#58
post #56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I am agreeing with you and supporting your perspective.

One of the things I realized watching this was this stuff probably holds together in the US because. Federal Social Insurance programs, Social security, Unemployment, food stamps, and other transfer payments. These substitute for states inability to print their own money. and set exchange rates or control the flow of capital. The Banking system is backstopped by the Federal Reserve not individual states. See Texas an…

You're exactly correct. Transfer payments keep our federal union whole.

As an aside, the states actually do have de facto currency issuing power as a function of their sovereignty and taxing authority. It's rarely exercised, but it has been done. For example when California failed to pass a budget a decade ago, it started paying with IOUs that it also accepted as payment for state tax liabilities[1]. They even strong-armed banks into accepting the IOUs as deposits. The total sum was nearly $3 billion. So the states can print money.

[1] https://www.sco.ca.gov/eo_news_registeredwarrants.html

Re: The elite that failed

#59
post #58
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things I realized watching this was this stuff probably holds together in the US because. Federal Social Insurance programs, Social security, Unemployment, food stamps, and other transfer payments. These substitute for states inability to print their own money. and set exchange rates or control the flow of capital. The Banking system is backstopped by the Federal Reserve not individual states. See Texas an…

You're exactly correct. Transfer payments keep our federal union whole. As an aside, the states actually do have de facto currency issuing power as a function of their sovereignty and taxing authority. It's rarely exercised, but it has been done. For example when California failed to pass a budget a decade ago, it started paying with IOUs that it also accepted as payment for state tax liabilities[1]. They even strong…

Reminded me, the EU has the power to limit the size of member states budget deficits. But this only enforced against economically weaker states. The US federal government has no such power.

I think China in the last 15 years has taken the opposite tack, demanding regional governments run large deficits and loaning them the money. Which works because, Chinese leadership can give two shits about the books.

Re: The elite that failed

#60
post #36

I'm not sure how this is a failure of the elite. The elite want to be in the EU and we are still in the EU. That doesn't seem to be a failure to me. That seems to be a success.

> The elite want to be in the EU Does that mean Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Jacob Reese-Mogg, Michael Gove and their friends are not "elite"? In that case, I don't think that word means what you think it means. The truth is that there are bits of elite on both sides, and that humanizing a social class is just a propaganda trick.

>Does that mean Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Jacob Reese-Mogg, Michael Gove and their friends are not "elite"?

Well, with the possible exception of Farage, these people wanted to remain. They just wanted to posture and score political points. Which is why they all panicked when the referendum went the way it did.

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