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MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

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Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#141

Post by nolok »

nnq wrote: post #134

...why would almost anyone using MongoDB care at all if it's included in a distro's set of default packages?! Don't we all always install software from repositories hosted by third parties? As long as the Mongo devs keep supporting RHEL, I'd see no problem for actual direct users of it. And SSPL sounds like a pretty good and sensible thing.

It may or may not matter for Ubuntu or Debian or most other distros, but the kind of users/companies/customers that insist on using RHEL very much care about it.

The whole point of using RHEL is that it has full support, why pay the premium for it if you then include non supported gears into it anyway.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#142

Post by tobias3 »

merlynn wrote: post #137
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

Michael from MongoDB here... Greed? You realize that anyone can still view, download, use, develop, modify and do everything they could do prior to the change - right? The only difference is that if they decide to offer the licensed software as a public service they must release the other components of the service under the same license.

Having read the license it seems like (in MongoDB context) a license where the GPL virality is more explicitly stated to include service mangement sofware. One could already argue that this software is "derived" if it depends on and extents MongoDB.

Couldn't you get in contact with the EFF and work on a more general, more viral form of AGPL, and treat the current license as more of a stop-gap measure? With those viral licenses it is really important to have only a few, so that they are compatible.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#143

Post by anticensor »

aurailious wrote: post #110
cyphar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RHEL is free software. It's not free of charge though.

The difference is generally not understood on a lot people. Its freedom, not price.

It is an issue of English language that cannot cover it. Turkish, my mother tongue, has six counterparts for them: ücretsiz "unpaid", bedava "gratis", hür "unrestricted (person)", özgür "free (freedom)", serbest "unrestricted, accessible (thing)", beleş "price-free (as in, you ought not to expect much out of it)"

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#144

Post by NeonVice »

merlynn wrote: post #137
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

Michael from MongoDB here... Greed? You realize that anyone can still view, download, use, develop, modify and do everything they could do prior to the change - right? The only difference is that if they decide to offer the licensed software as a public service they must release the other components of the service under the same license.

If I offer MongoDB as a cloud service with a homegrown web interface (e.g. mLab) then I am required to release my web interface?

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#145

Post by nix0n »

lmm wrote: post #64
jerf wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You own sentence shows the relevant difference: "embedded". The GPL license has always stopped at the OS process boundary. You can essentially do whatever you want with a GPL program as long as you interact with it over standard OS mechanisms, rather than direct modification; you're still obligated to distribute source but it's source that is already publicly available, so there's no proprietary interest in it. Mongo…

> The GPL license has always stopped at the OS process boundary. You can essentially do whatever you want with a GPL program as long as you interact with it over standard OS mechanisms, rather than direct modification Not strictly the case according to the FSF's FAQ; the GPL applies to anything that integrates deeply enough with the covered program to constitute a "derivative work" under copyright law, which is not n…

Red Hat Legal feels that AGPL stops at the tarball boundary, and the preamble isn't binding[0](2009).

[0]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-infrastructure-list/2...

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#146

Post by merlynn »

tobias3 wrote: post #142
merlynn wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michael from MongoDB here... Greed? You realize that anyone can still view, download, use, develop, modify and do everything they could do prior to the change - right? The only difference is that if they decide to offer the licensed software as a public service they must release the other components of the service under the same license.

Having read the license it seems like (in MongoDB context) a license where the GPL virality is more explicitly stated to include service mangement sofware. One could already argue that this software is "derived" if it depends on and extents MongoDB. Couldn't you get in contact with the EFF and work on a more general, more viral form of AGPL, and treat the current license as more of a stop-gap measure? With those vira…

Not sure about the EFF but I know that MongoDB has submitted the SSPL to the OSI and has already taken feedback from that process.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#147

Post by jayofdoom »

merlynn wrote: post #137
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

Michael from MongoDB here... Greed? You realize that anyone can still view, download, use, develop, modify and do everything they could do prior to the change - right? The only difference is that if they decide to offer the licensed software as a public service they must release the other components of the service under the same license.

Honestly, from my perspective the problem is more the timing. If MongoDB had always been licensed this way, companies could make informed decisions about what product to use. Instead, you pulled a license bait and switch -- attracted people with a free-as-in-freedom license, then switched it for one that was less free after adoption picked up. That's not behavior I'd personally support as someone who has a career because of free software, and I wouldn't support it professionally because of the immense risk a company takes on when adopting a piece of software for long-term use -- like a DB.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#148

Post by dragonwriter »

jerf wrote: post #60
lmm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic the GPL is also non-free, since you can't run a GPL program embedded in a closed-source management program.

You own sentence shows the relevant difference: "embedded". The GPL license has always stopped at the OS process boundary. You can essentially do whatever you want with a GPL program as long as you interact with it over standard OS mechanisms, rather than direct modification; you're still obligated to distribute source but it's source that is already publicly available, so there's no proprietary interest in it. Mongo…

> The GPL license has always stopped at the OS process boundary

No, it stops at the copyright law boundary of derivative work.

Whether or not a court would find that to be equivalent to an OS process boundary probably varies by jurisdiction and detailed facts of particular cases.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#149

Post by merlynn »

sieabahlpark wrote: post #139
merlynn wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michael from MongoDB here... Greed? You realize that anyone can still view, download, use, develop, modify and do everything they could do prior to the change - right? The only difference is that if they decide to offer the licensed software as a public service they must release the other components of the service under the same license.

Thanks for finally giving Amazon the kick it needed to implement your API. We finally don't have to manage a mongodb cluster anymore.

I suppose but it might be interesting to note that you didn't have to wait for Amazon for that. A lot of people don't know that there exists a fully managed offering from MongoDB. It's called Atlas... not trying to sell here - just informing people that may read your comment and think it was a valid motivation for Amazon to create their DocumentDB offering. Atlas has existed for 2 years.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#150

Post by valarauca1 »

gigatexal wrote: post #42
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

But RHEL is not free. So... can’t this be included then only used after the user sets up a license?

RHEL is free (use CentOS or Fedora)

Support is not free. If you want software updates, security patches, bug fixes, or somebody to call when shit hits the fan you pay Red Hat.

If not CentOS/Fedora use the same source codes

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