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MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

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Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#121

Good, Mongo is rarely the right database.

Absolutely. My characterization of Mongo is that it's the back end choice of front end developers. The only possible justification for it could be time to MVP (and that's being kind). It's bad for all of the reasons that back-end people make back-end choices - non-functional requirements like operability, clustering, etc. Hopefully this is the start of it being removed from any infrastructure uses. I spun up an opens…

Actually the NFRs are one of the best parts of MongoDB.

It is by far one of the easiest databases to administer, clustering is orders of magnitude easer than say PostgreSQL and it can be the fastest database by far for certain use cases e.g. cell level updates. Can you be more specific about what in particular is deficient ?

And if you look at their customers most of them aren't using it for front end work. Likewise I find it to be quite popular in the Data Analytics/Science space as a store of analytical features and for 360 entity views.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#122
post #93

I am really torn about this news. On one hand MongoDB's change of license is a clear attempt to discriminate against a set of users, so it is clearly non-free. On the other hand I know it is really difficult to make a sustainable business by developing an opensource product, especially since there are companies (like Amazon) who will take successful opensource projects and offer them as a service, or simply offer a c…

> Discriminating against such uses doesn't seem wrong to me since they clearly harm the creators and maintainers in their effort to actually make some income from the project

It may not be wrong, but it does stand in opposition to the definition of Open Source and Free Software (at least as defined by bodies that RedHat and many others see as authoritative on that subject).

So perhaps we could call MongoDB what it is - a proprietary software with shared code license that lets you run their code for free in some scenarios. I think that wouldn't sell to the investors and VCs as well as open source though, and would make it harder to build a community around.

And then we haven't even touched on the CLA required to make contributions to the project - I have no idea how many people and companies contributed changes or fixes to MongoDB, but they must be pretty happy right now.

Does that mean you can't have a business built around an open source project? It does seem that way to me, especially if we talk about something that scales in a number of employees and revenue. I do think that you could bootstrap a small, consultancy-style business, built around your open source technology, but definitely not something that VCs would drool over.

Also, on a related note, I'd like to add something that's rough around the edges and I'm sure someone else could make a much better case of it, but well, here I go.

There has always been a discussion on Free Software vs. Open Source [1] where the advocates of Free Software are arguing that Open Source does not protect freedom of the users (and communities) while Open Source advocates opposed that view with argument that Open Source is even more free and pure than Free Software. In my opinion, the recent changes made by MongoDB, Redis Labs [2] and even Elastic [3] show that without ethics backing the movement, the movement itself is in danger of having its core believes changed. If some software can't be made in a spirit of Free Software (or even Open Source) then perhaps it should be made as proprietary software with shared code license - it's not as cool, and perhaps will make the adoption harder, but at least it's more sincere.

[1] For example, see Stallman's "Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software" article https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

[2] Calling their non-free licenses "Apache-2 + Common Clause" is a pretty disingenuous move, and the only reason why I see it less bad than what Mongo did being the fact that it only affects a subset of previously-closed extensions IIRC.

[3] Their announcement on x-pack did not call it open source, however the entire press release was full of "open source" this and "open source" - it felt like they tried really hard to ride the Open Source train without actually riding it.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#123
post #93

I am really torn about this news. On one hand MongoDB's change of license is a clear attempt to discriminate against a set of users, so it is clearly non-free. On the other hand I know it is really difficult to make a sustainable business by developing an opensource product, especially since there are companies (like Amazon) who will take successful opensource projects and offer them as a service, or simply offer a c…

PostgreSQL is used much more widely than MongoDB, and has a much freer license. Lots of people make money developing and supporting PostgreSQL. I also content that MongoDB built their project on top of a mountain of Free Software. It rings a little hollow to me when they complain that others are making money from using their software, when the MongoDB team is also making money from using others' software. Last I chec…

> Last I checked, they weren't a major contributor to the Linux kernel, or GNU, or GCC, or Emacs/Vim

MongoDB only needs the Linux kernel/GNU/GCC when it's running or compiling on Linux. On OSX and Windows it uses other toolchains.

And your point goes against the entire spirit of open source. No one should be forced to contribute back to open source less they be criticised by the community.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#124
post #32

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

I had hopes for MongoDB back 10 years ago, but it just let me down. I'm thinking of trying out ArangoDB next. OrientDB is just riddled with bug and their docs are lack luster.

I only migrated companies away from it. I prefer reliable data stores. Postgres + Riak always got my back, 15years, 8 years in production respectively.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#125

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

IMO, MongoDB was suss from the very start. They made claims and overpromised (though I might be a little unfair in that others jumped on this bandwagon more heavily), so removing MongoDB from RHEL is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, I'm not a MongoDB fan for many, many reasons so I'm quite biased.

The webscale video was our absolute favorite in one of Amazon's systems engineering team for a long time.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#126
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The installation instructions I've always followed for MongoDB start with importing a key, and adding their official repo to my source list. Going with the maintainer's repo means that you trust the maintainer with providing security updates for the version you have installed or you trust them with providing a useable upgrade path. If you go with a distro package, you will get both the benefits of security updates…

Yeah but the point is, from a practical standpoint, nothing has changed. You were doing that before if you were using MongoDB + RHEL, so you'll still be doing that now.

No. Before I could use the OS built-in MongoDB and get 10 years worth of security update for that version.

Now I need to fetch the version packaged by MongoDB of which I don’t know the release cycles and years of included support.

Plus, it’s an additional subscription cost and per-server license.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#127

This is rich coming from Redhat that does shady things with subscription license agreements and open-source software.

Nothing Redhat does is shady. There's nothing wrong with license agreements for closed source software, or even license-agreements that support open source software. The latter is how open source companies make money.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#128
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the new MongoDB licence is non-free, the chances that Debian will include that software in their repos are nil.

They will probably keep the last version before the license change for a while, and probably add minor community-sourced patches. The next version of ubuntu will include mongdb version "3.6.9+really3.6.8+90~g8e540c0b6d" which you can see means "last commit before the license change"

I can foresee the day when that version of MongoDB is advertised/discussed as having "AWS Document DB compatibility" (rather than today's converse).

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, MongoDB was suss from the very start. They made claims and overpromised (though I might be a little unfair in that others jumped on this bandwagon more heavily), so removing MongoDB from RHEL is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, I'm not a MongoDB fan for many, many reasons so I'm quite biased.

The webscale video was our absolute favorite in one of Amazon's systems engineering team for a long time.

That's the case for many engineering teams.

For those who haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#130
post #29

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

If the new MongoDB licence is non-free, the chances that Debian will include that software in their repos are nil.

We're at 3.4 right now, but there's concern that shipping any non-SSPL-licensed version is unsustainable for the lifetime of a Debian release.

See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=916107

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