Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament • Hacker News Board

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#961

Post by jandrese » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #437

jandrese wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the second referendum will also fail if it still includes the "allow brown people into your country" part of being an EU member.

There is of course no rule in the EU obliging countries to accept non-EU immigrants. It's the "allow Poles into your country" that some Brits are unwilling to accept.

That's not what people were told though. This is an incredible wedge issue and the fact that people seem to be surprised about it suggests that they aren't paying attention. It's no coincidence that the stories about "economic refugees" were all over the place before the referendum. I mean obviously people were leaving Syria because they just wanted to take your job, there's no other reason.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#962

Post by jandrese » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #483

jandrese wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For US viewers, it's kind of like if the Republican party held a national referendum that said "repeal and replace Obamacare in two years", and the vote passed. Then then they're on the hook to do the actual replacement part and realize that there never was a replacement but they have this hard deadline to get it done. The fact that the vote was held at all is total madness. They were trying to call a bluff and it bl…

Yeah, to me the initial referendum, because of the complete lack of information on what the actual deal would be, is about as useful as an opinion poll for actually informing the future of the UK re the EU. (US user)

There was a lot of information about what the deal would be. It would involve not sending millions of pounds to the EU, better healthcare, total control over immigration, etc...

Sure some of it was lies, but lies are a form of information. They had a bus and everything.

The anti-Brexit side was seemingly more vague, saying that it would be bad without really giving people anything to be excited about.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#963

Post by purple_ducks » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #946

andrepd wrote: post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But precisely, you are voting on laws, not on an abstract "would you rather leave or remain" question. The referendum should have been held now: "We have this deal prepared, would you leave with this deal, leave with no deal, or remain?"

Meanwhile there have been several conservative speeches in Parliament about the direction they want: They want May to come up with a better plan for a "No deal" Brexit. To take a much harder stance against the EU in negotiations. THAT's why they voted against her. I feel like this is going in a VERY different direction than is being implied in the comments here. And let's be honest here: it might work. In the EU, in…

Ah, that's not how the EU works when it comes to trade. You're in or you're out.

Non-EU countries make trade deals with the EU who is collectively acting on their member states behalf.

There will _NEVER_ be a "side" trade deal between Britain and an EU member state directly.

Don't feel too bad about not knowing this. The original Minister for Brexit David Davis (& embarrassingly enough a former Europe minister) also didn't know this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-for-...

> However one of the main basic features of the European Union is that EU countries cannot negotiate individual trade deals without side countries and instead do so as a bloc of 28.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#964

Post by purple_ducks » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #946

andrepd wrote: post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But precisely, you are voting on laws, not on an abstract "would you rather leave or remain" question. The referendum should have been held now: "We have this deal prepared, would you leave with this deal, leave with no deal, or remain?"

Meanwhile there have been several conservative speeches in Parliament about the direction they want: They want May to come up with a better plan for a "No deal" Brexit. To take a much harder stance against the EU in negotiations. THAT's why they voted against her. I feel like this is going in a VERY different direction than is being implied in the comments here. And let's be honest here: it might work. In the EU, in…

> Let's give the UK a fair exit and a fair trade deal".

They are getting a fair exit and trade deal.

That's what is happening now. Britain seems to be slowly realising that them being part of the EU was more beneficial to them (& the EU) than any other way.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#965

Post by reciprocity » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

ako wrote: post #716

smileypete wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So what could the EU have conceded that would have convinced the die-hard Brexiteers to opt for Remain? All it would have taken is to swing the referendum result by a few percentage points. Some moves towards reforming the EU to make it more democratic could have been welcome.

After reading this [1] i wonder if the level of democracy is n't the problem, but rather the general understanding of how the EU works. [1]: https://qr.ae/TUnWGJ

This is a truly excellent link and one that should be shared as widely as possible on this topic. I read his entire comment and came away much more confident in my understanding of what the EU really is and how it works. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#966

Post by microcolonel » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #745

microcolonel wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the EU would blockade the transport of medical supplies is ludicrous; or if it's not ludicrous, it is further proof that leaving was the right choice. It's the geopolitical equivalent of "maybe I shouldn't have divorced my husband, because despite the beatings, at least the insulin was mailed on time."

It's not going to blockade anything, it's just that throughout at Dover-Calais depends on not having any checks. Oh and cross recognition of driver and haulier licenses.

Trust me, if a truck has medical supplies, Britain will respect whatever stupid piece of paper the driver is holding.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#967

Post by mdpopescu » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #774

nraynaud wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the voter’s fault. In a functioning democracy, there is a system to approve a text by popular vote instead of the usual parlement. So the question at such a vote should always be: “do you approve the proposed text?”, then the text becomes law. By organizing an abstract opinion poll, the government just prepared a shit show, there no way to make any significant chunk of the population happy, everybody had…

> This is not the voter’s fault. Yes it is. Asked "do you want to fundamentally change status quo in some random yet to be decided way that most experts warn you will result in chaos" population should have voted "no". Population would have voted "no" if just a few more young people cared enough to get their asses to the voting booths. The lessons from Brexit are the same as the lessons from Trump in USA, Kaczyński i…

1. vote 2. don't vote populists

Poe's law again. What's up with these posts?

Voting, at its core, is a popularity contest. How exactly do you NOT vote for populists?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#968

Post by mdpopescu » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 8:28 PM UTC

SZJX wrote: post #869

asabjorn wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot. It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies. It is i…

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Sounds just like rehashing the what the mainstream western media have been drumming to tedium. If you genuinely believe that everything including Brexit and Donald trump is "caused" by Russia it's you that need to be much "better informed". If not then you're deliberately trying to deflect the focus just like what the Democrats and in general the mainstream media have been doi…

You need to pay more attention... he is being sarcastic. That's exactly his point - people are wrong to believe the media and blame everything on Russia.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#969

Post by tim333 » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

hanoz wrote: post #334

The deal was the worst of all worlds and deliberately designed to fail. The whole project since the referendum has been to work towards the palatable introduction of a second referendum whilst spending the intervening time demonstrating the impossibility of a good deal and the awfulness of no deal. We will now proceed to run down the clock towards the no deal 'cliff edge' and as the precipice looms go to the EU askin…

Mrs May who is mostly responsible for the deal is not a fan of a second referendum. She also wasn't a fan of parliament being involved and would have just forced the deal through if she could have. If you prioritise controlling immigration which has been May's thing for a while, and keep the Good Friday Agreement then May's deal is what you get.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#970

Post by not_kurt_godel » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 9:06 PM UTC

meawaythrow wrote: post #886

winningcontinue wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not interesting at all. It's the the mundane politics of everyday normal foreign relations as countries try to get a leg up and interfere in each other's processes. Maybe the only thing that's interesting is that for the first time, it's happening to the rich western former colonial powers. The chickens have finally come home to roost.

for the first time I think the russian meddling stuff is largely a bs scapegoat and even I know the KGB was up to this stuff for the entire cold war. See the classic interview from KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov where he claims that the majority of KGB efforts were dedicated to "demoralization" not spying.

Demoralization and destabilization are their goals with respect to meddling though. See my rather long reply to parent in this thread.