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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#771

Post by anarchitect »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #704
microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

Whichever way one voted, we were sold a pup. Both sides lied. Which makes the case and result, either way, rather academic. Farage admitted the morning after the result that the £350m a week to the NHS was a lie. A promise that undoubtedly had considerable impact with the current austerity NHS funding crisis.

> Farage admitted the morning after the result that the £350m a week to the NHS was a lie

The bus was part of the official Vote Leave campaign not Farage’s Leave.EU, so that particular lie is not for Farage to defend. Many others are though.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#772

Post by nindalf »

mulletbum wrote: post #719
solveit wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right of course, but I wonder how much it matters that only 45% of the voting population would have voted leave without interference as opposed to 52% (numbers pulled out of thin air). For interference (or a freak event, or weather, or anything really) to be able to push the results over the edge, the society as a whole has to be fairly close anyway. This is also what I say to the Americans who insist Trump do…

How do you view us?

As bullies, tbh.

Reading the history of American foreign policy, it’s difficult to see it otherwise. It’s one long list of screwing other countries to serve the interests of the American people. That list contains a lot of bungled operations so the goals weren’t achieved some of the time. America has had 0 issues propping up brutal, venal, self-serving dictators if it meant benefit to America. Examples include Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Chile, Pakistan, Egypt, Afghanistan. These are the ones I can name off hand.

At the same time, American leaders are quick to get on their high horse talking about the values of democracy. Talk is cheap though.

Even after all that, our view of America dropped precipitously with the election of Donald Trump. I think it’s safe to say that a democracy elects people who embody the electorate. You know what Trump is like. That’s how we think of you (as a whole) right now. However, as a great man once said “some, I assume, are good people”.

If you’d like to learn more about the misadventures of America in the Middle East in particular check out The Silk Roads by Peter Frankopan. The last few chapters cover the 20th and 21st centuries.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#773

Post by TheGrumpyBrit »

justaguyhere wrote: post #651
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

The thing is, there was no talk of a deal before the referendum. The vote was simply Stay or Go, with the assumption being that we would simply fall back to WTO rules. All this talk of negotiating a deal came after the vote. In that sense, a No Deal Brexit is closer to what the people voted for than any deal. Contrary to "voters remorse", I know plenty of Brexit supporters who are celebrating the defeat of what they see as the governments attempt to undermine the terms of Brexit.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#774

Post by ajuc »

nraynaud wrote: post #756
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

This is not the voter’s fault. In a functioning democracy, there is a system to approve a text by popular vote instead of the usual parlement. So the question at such a vote should always be: “do you approve the proposed text?”, then the text becomes law. By organizing an abstract opinion poll, the government just prepared a shit show, there no way to make any significant chunk of the population happy, everybody had…

> This is not the voter’s fault.

Yes it is. Asked "do you want to fundamentally change status quo in some random yet to be decided way that most experts warn you will result in chaos" population should have voted "no".

Population would have voted "no" if just a few more young people cared enough to get their asses to the voting booths.

The lessons from Brexit are the same as the lessons from Trump in USA, Kaczyński in Poland, Orban in Hungary: 1. vote 2. don't vote populists. 3. don't disregard warnings of experts. 4. don't buy conspiracy theories. 5. don't engage in witch hunts against minorities and don't vote people who do so.

It's not a lot to expect of people. It's the bare minimum if democracy is to work at all.

Cameron is at fault too, of course. Shouldn't have played with the fire. But some politicians will play with fire if there's a profit to be made and power to get. It's the voters who have to stop them, not the other way.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#775

Post by burfog »

justaguyhere wrote: post #677
smileypete wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

What really helped the leave vote was not so much shadowy influences but the attitude of the EU. 1. Can you explain the "attitude of the EU" part? 2. If the EU is that bad, why aren't other countries holding referendums and leaving the EU? Why is only the UK making so much noise? I am not European, so my knowledge on this matter is pretty small. Honestly curious, not being snarky etc.

The situation is certainly different for any country that uses the Euro. The UK could leave with far less trouble than Poland or Ireland could.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#776

Post by collyw »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #704
microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

Whichever way one voted, we were sold a pup. Both sides lied. Which makes the case and result, either way, rather academic. Farage admitted the morning after the result that the £350m a week to the NHS was a lie. A promise that undoubtedly had considerable impact with the current austerity NHS funding crisis.

What lies did the remain side give? We know exactly what we were getting there, the same as what we have.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#777

Post by alexgmcm »

beefield wrote: post #224
PaulRobinson wrote: post #142

Here's what happens next: - A motion of no confidence has been tabled and will be debated and voted on tomorrow - If the motion carries (i.e. the Government loses): 1. Theresa May must resign as Prime Minister 2. There can be a 14 day window in which a new government is formed, which must be approved by a motion of confidence. This is likely to be waived 3. There will be a general election. Theresa May will remain le…

> It will leave 17m people in an absolute rage, and they have already murdered one MP. It'll get worse. So, the decision making is kept as hostage by 17m angry people who won't accept that their side winning was based on pretty much fraudulent arguments? Maybe, just maybe, it could be in the long run worth paying the price of their anger and show that the modern democratic society has some backbone against these kind…

Yeah, obviously the only way we can defeat the far right fanatics is by doing everything they want...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#778

Post by arethuza »

osrec wrote: post #612
arethuza wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We all live in a yellow lump of Brie, yellow lump of Brie... " Edit: Clearly one glass of wine too many...

Are you referring to this: https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-explain-cheese-submar... ?

Yes, you've gouda admit it's a grate analogy.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#779

Post by DanBC »

woodpanel wrote: post #468
dijit wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost comical (if it wasn’t so pathetically sad) how divided and polarised the country is. My mother and her entire extended friend circles are aggressively pro-leave, even tofting sound-bites at me. A little further south/east (mum lives in Coventry) in Kettering my friend is pro-leave, but not aggressively so, his soon-to-be wife is remain, but they tout their points and agree to disagree. Further south in Lo…

But only if Brexit isn’t being done, right? Not living in the UK, but I would guess that as stupid as Remainers might think Brexit is and Brexiters are, it‘s a whole other ballgame to assume that because they are stupid you are entitled to nullify a vote. And because of that, even though a lot in the EU are rooting for it, I doubt a second referendum is going to take place. Even die-hard remainers would ask themselve…

But the second vote isn't about nullifying the first.

We accept the first vote: people want brexit. They don't know what deal the UK might get, and they think we can continue with no free movement, with full trade, and without being bound by EU law.

Now we know what brexit looks like it's perfectly fine to say "we're going to have to keep free movement, we won't have full trade, and we're going to have to maintain these EU laws if we want any trade at all: do you still want brexit?"

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#780

Post by TheGrumpyBrit »

dTal wrote: post #668
microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

The original intent? What original intent was that? Brexit was always light on detail, and that is coming home to roost. When pressed, most Brexit supporters I've spoken to show absolutely no interest in the dismal nitty gritty of politics, preferring to spout shallow platitudes like "why can't they just get on with it". The silence from chief Brexiteers Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson has been profoundly deafening.

There was no need for detail, because the WTO already provides a framework for trade agreements. That was the assumed state people voted on - talk of a deal came afterwards, and was considered by many to be an attempt to do "Brexit in name only", causing a situation where we're still obligated to the EU but no longer have any MEPs.
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