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MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

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Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#51

Post by Frondo »

bubblethink wrote: post #44
timdierks wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true: it's explicitly not the intent of the GPL, and furthermore the GPL is clearly a contract which explicitly spells out its intent, not a vague document whose spirit needs to be interpreted.

It is explicit in the freedoms it grants you, one of which being the freedom to distribute copies. The intent is pretty clear. The RH workaround to that is that if you exercise this freedom, they will not do business with you in the future. You got to exercise your freedom, but only once. The GPL doesn't have recourse for that.

You can redistribute the source, and that's what really matters. No one ever made any claims to redistributing binaries, and that's neither the letter nor the spirit of th GPL.

The GPL is about user freedom, which relies on source code. The whole thing came about because Richard only had access to binaries for that printer.

And it makes sense that RedHat wouldn't want you to distribute their binaries...who's to say you didn't backdoor them? That's their name on the line, too.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#52

Post by [deleted] »

bubblethink wrote: post #44
timdierks wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true: it's explicitly not the intent of the GPL, and furthermore the GPL is clearly a contract which explicitly spells out its intent, not a vague document whose spirit needs to be interpreted.

It is explicit in the freedoms it grants you, one of which being the freedom to distribute copies. The intent is pretty clear. The RH workaround to that is that if you exercise this freedom, they will not do business with you in the future. You got to exercise your freedom, but only once. The GPL doesn't have recourse for that.

[deleted]

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#53

Post by bubblethink »

Frondo wrote: post #51
bubblethink wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is explicit in the freedoms it grants you, one of which being the freedom to distribute copies. The intent is pretty clear. The RH workaround to that is that if you exercise this freedom, they will not do business with you in the future. You got to exercise your freedom, but only once. The GPL doesn't have recourse for that.

You can redistribute the source, and that's what really matters. No one ever made any claims to redistributing binaries, and that's neither the letter nor the spirit of th GPL. The GPL is about user freedom, which relies on source code. The whole thing came about because Richard only had access to binaries for that printer. And it makes sense that RedHat wouldn't want you to distribute their binaries...who's to say y…

>You can redistribute the source, and that's what really matters. No one ever made any claims to redistributing binaries

From https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html:

"Freedom to distribute (freedoms 2 and 3) means you are free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution, to anyone anywhere. Being free to do these things means (among other things) that you do not have to ask or pay for permission to do so. ..... The freedom to redistribute copies must include binary or executable forms of the program, as well as source code, for both modified and unmodified versions. "

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#54

Post by amyjess »

lmm wrote: post #45
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

I don't see the rationale for their claims that the license is non-free? There's nothing discriminatory on the face of it. Plenty of acknowledgedly free licenses make commercial users uncomfortable (e.g. the AGPL).

From the Open Source Definition:

> 9. License Must Not Restrict Other Software

> The license must not place restrictions on other software that is distributed along with the licensed software. For example, the license must not insist that all other programs distributed on the same medium must be open-source software.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#56

Post by lmm »

lozenge wrote: post #49
lmm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the rationale for their claims that the license is non-free? There's nothing discriminatory on the face of it. Plenty of acknowledgedly free licenses make commercial users uncomfortable (e.g. the AGPL).

"The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose" (freedom 0) You can't run it using closed source management software to offer MongoDB as a service.

By that logic the GPL is also non-free, since you can't run a GPL program embedded in a closed-source management program.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#57

Post by sigzero »

bubblethink wrote: post #44
timdierks wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true: it's explicitly not the intent of the GPL, and furthermore the GPL is clearly a contract which explicitly spells out its intent, not a vague document whose spirit needs to be interpreted.

It is explicit in the freedoms it grants you, one of which being the freedom to distribute copies. The intent is pretty clear. The RH workaround to that is that if you exercise this freedom, they will not do business with you in the future. You got to exercise your freedom, but only once. The GPL doesn't have recourse for that.

In reading that, the GPL is working as it should.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#58

Post by afroboy »

gigatexal wrote: post #42
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

It seems[0] the new MongoDB license is basically non-free and it would make no sense to include it in RHEL8. I hope Debian and other distros follow suit as a result if they come in agreement. It's sad that the license change all resorts to greed basically, as if Oracle took over MongoDB. If I were to ever use a NoSQL database for a new project I'd aim for MIT / 2-clause BSD based projects instead. PostgreSQL has no i…

But RHEL is not free. So... can’t this be included then only used after the user sets up a license?

It's 100% free, you can use CentOS which is identical to RHEL and provided by Redhat.

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#59

Post by sfifs »

bubblethink wrote: post #28
ergo14 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? It's so non-free that you have CentOS.

Yes, but as a customer of RH, you are not allowed to distribute RH's binaries, or they will terminate your contract. That is also against the spirit of the GPL, although not necessarily the letter. You can take the source, remove the branding, recompile, and redistribute, which is similar to what CentOS does/used to. However, the GPL allows the former too. i.e., You can straight up distribute the binaries under GPL.

GPL very explicitly refers to the right to distribute source code. It is not concerned with binaries. That was an explicit choice since the license spirit is about user freedom which concerns access to sources and modifying sources.

See clause #1: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html

Re: MongoDB removed from RHEL 8 beta due to license

#60

Post by jerf »

lmm wrote: post #56
lozenge wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose" (freedom 0) You can't run it using closed source management software to offer MongoDB as a service.

By that logic the GPL is also non-free, since you can't run a GPL program embedded in a closed-source management program.

You own sentence shows the relevant difference: "embedded". The GPL license has always stopped at the OS process boundary. You can essentially do whatever you want with a GPL program as long as you interact with it over standard OS mechanisms, rather than direct modification; you're still obligated to distribute source but it's source that is already publicly available, so there's no proprietary interest in it. Mongo's does not. Neither does the AGPL, to show this isn't new.
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