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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#911

Post by sintaxi »

Tomte wrote: post #506
School-Cotton wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is a sovereign country -- how is it possible for them to never be able to do something without someone else's permission?

They are sovereign, as article 50 proves. Unfortunately, they want something from the EU. Actually a lot. And so they need to offer something in return. That's the big joke of Brexit. Boris Johnson fantasizing about dozens of trade deals ready to be signed when the UK exits. How many are there now? Zero. Because the UK isn't in a position as strong as Brexiteers fantasized. Ostensibly they are all for negotiating dea…

I hate to break it to you but Britain is "offering little" because they actually have more negotiating power.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#912

Post by sctb »

rezeroed wrote: post #881
Tomte wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are sovereign, as article 50 proves. Unfortunately, they want something from the EU. Actually a lot. And so they need to offer something in return. That's the big joke of Brexit. Boris Johnson fantasizing about dozens of trade deals ready to be signed when the UK exits. How many are there now? Zero. Because the UK isn't in a position as strong as Brexiteers fantasized. Ostensibly they are all for negotiating dea…

This is absurd. Given that you're a German you're obviously not following this very closely, so why on earth you're throwing uninformed comments around in public is inexplicable. Brexiters do not want anything, including "handouts" from the EU. They want to be rid of the EU. The reason no deal is lacking in preparation is because the UK government has wasted another two years mucking around with the quagmire that is…

> This is absurd. Given that you're a German you're obviously not following this very closely, so why on earth you're throwing uninformed comments around in public is inexplicable.

Could you please leave stuff like this out of comments? On Hacker News you just make your point without gratuitous antagonism.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#913

Post by yomly »

wahern wrote: post #759
makomk wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason the Eurozone's in the mess it is right now is that, for the most part, the EU didn't let the fact that the Euro was completely infeasible for particular countries get in the way of converting them over to it anyway. The UK wasn't the only country with similar problems, but others like Italy didn't opt out and are in a fine state now as a result. In that sense the British opt-out worked well for us.

By that logic the US shouldn't have a single currency, either. I get that a single currency is problematic. Arguably it is problematic even in the US, after all this time. But it doesn't necessarily follow that a single currency is fundamentally infeasible. The US isn't crippled because of it. By contrast, the poster gave a very concrete explanation why adoption of the Euro by the UK was [then] infeasible.

The US and the EU really aren't comparable, as much as people like to model them as analogous.

In Europe you have tens of countries that speak different languages and have cultures that go back 1000-2000 years. That, along with a bunch of political baggage and that each nation has its own fiscal policy, and the starting points between EU and US are very very different.

I would instead extend your concession that given the single currency already exhibits creaks in the US, imagine how hard it would be to manage in the EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#914

Post by _lbaq »

mattmanser wrote: post #899
_lbaq wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Brexit promise was to leave the EU and open better >trading options with the rest of the world. One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country.

Think of 27 people negotiating, all with very different agendas, versus one person with a clear agenda. Why do you believe that the EU would be in a better position? It's like a rat king when it comes to negotiating, 27 countries pulling in different directions all with different desires.

Access to the second largest common market in the world ?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#915

Post by andrepd »

_nalply wrote: post #817
nraynaud wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the voter’s fault. In a functioning democracy, there is a system to approve a text by popular vote instead of the usual parlement. So the question at such a vote should always be: “do you approve the proposed text?”, then the text becomes law. By organizing an abstract opinion poll, the government just prepared a shit show, there no way to make any significant chunk of the population happy, everybody had…

That's what Switzerland does. Just today I voted about an energy act, a police act and a residence planning act. I admit that I didn't study the law texts carefully. Instead I read the neutral explanation of the government and both explanations of the pro and contra committees and decided whether the reasonings convinced me or not. So even in Switzerland you could get the proverbial shit show if someone managed to co…

But precisely, you are voting on laws, not on an abstract "would you rather leave or remain" question.

The referendum should have been held now: "We have this deal prepared, would you leave with this deal, leave with no deal, or remain?"

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#916

Post by tim333 »

notahacker wrote: post #588
tim333 wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If May wasn't in a coalition with the DUP then N Ireland could have remained in customs union with the EU as it is now and the mainland could have gone Canada+. Not really happening at the moment though.

Agree that the issue would have had a lot less salience if the government and media were largely free to ignore the DUP and Northern Ireland in general, though I imagine those ERG Brexiters who seem to want to find any excuse not to have a deal could have still made it a sticking point. And tbf, the unionists probably have as legitimate a point that a separate customs regime violates their idea of the spirit of the G…

I had a look at wikipedia on the Good Friday Agreement and it doesn't seem to say much about trade and customs. Already NI has some different laws to the mainland (gay marriage) and some trade restrictions (cattle). If brexit just "violates their idea of the spirit of"... then I think we can maybe live with that.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#917

Post by konradb »

kodablah wrote: post #28
shmerl wrote: post #4

So, will they now re-evaluate the whole Brexit? It's clear it was a failed idea to begin with.

It's not clear to me nor am I convinced it is clear to those who voted for autonomy. One could argue that EU legislation since the vote only bolsters the arguments for independence. The only thing that's clear from my outsider perspective is that some campaigning was shady. How can it be clear it was a failed idea when the idea hasn't even come to fruition?

> How can it be clear it was a failed idea when the idea hasn't even come to fruition?

By doing a cost benefit analysis of the exceptionally high probability likely outcomes

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#918

Post by hardlianotion »

_lbaq wrote: post #878
robertony wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. The EU has a history of being really slow at negotiating trade deals unfortunately. Further, the EU enforces VAT fees and implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses, even when no EU competitors exist. These fees have a trendency to reduce economic activity within the EU and prevent che…

>implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses Had to look it up, looks like 85:ish % of the UK trade is with the EU.

It is not. Under half of exports are to Europe, and declining. Trade with EU is important, however.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Sum...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#919

Post by m_mueller »

_nalply wrote: post #880
m_mueller wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

be careful with that "neutral explanation". in the last one we got told that private agents hired by social insurances may only observe clients in public spaces, while the law text actually says "public spaces and what's observable from there". i.e. pretty much any Swiss inhabitant can now be put under surveillance in their private homes without any judge order.

Yes, you are right. Then the opposing committee would point this out in their explanation.

People tend to trust the government much more than opposition committees.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#920

Post by spyrosg »

moystard wrote: post #848
sintaxi wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It stands to reason that the EU would not agree with the decision. If a "no deal" is the only way it can be done then that is what is done. That's what the people voted for. Britain is the second largest net contributor to the EU next to Germany. Britain will be absolutely fine.

Eventually it probably will (brexiters seem to think in 25 / 50 years time, which is apparently a good price to pay for Brexit...). However, the UK will lose the huge amount of influence it has at the moment on the world stage, will be pressured by bigger economies to accept unfavorable trade deals and deregulation (US food standards, VISAs, etc) and its manufacturing will be severely damaged; it could possibly colla…

The UK doesn't have much to export in terms of natural resources (excepting Ireland), or hard-to-move industry. That leaves services, which can go away easily. So the situation was already bad in terms of overt influence, compared to, say, Germany.

Behind the scenes however, the British seem to stay important. The safekeeping of the Gladio operatives' names, Steele's involvement against Trump, the UK national who started the White Helmets, ... I have the vague feeling that les rosbifs seem to pop up a lot where the action is, just not too obviously.

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