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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#801

Post by Wildgoose »

boudin wrote: post #789
TheGrumpyBrit wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, there was no talk of a deal before the referendum. The vote was simply Stay or Go, with the assumption being that we would simply fall back to WTO rules. All this talk of negotiating a deal came after the vote. In that sense, a No Deal Brexit is closer to what the people voted for than any deal. Contrary to "voters remorse", I know plenty of Brexit supporters who are celebrating the defeat of what they…

I've never seen anything in the Brexit campaign saying that the goal was to fall back to WTO rules between UK and EU.

That's because it's the default position after leaving the EU trading block.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#802

Post by nicky0 »

collyw wrote: post #767
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

Yes, just like they won the US election as well. Those guys sure are good at marketing considering the relatively minimal sums they spend. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/01/russian-facebook-ad-spend/

Do you think the entirety of Russia's efforts to destabilise the US amounts to a few Facbook ads?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#803

Post by everdev »

ajuc wrote: post #774
nraynaud wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the voter’s fault. In a functioning democracy, there is a system to approve a text by popular vote instead of the usual parlement. So the question at such a vote should always be: “do you approve the proposed text?”, then the text becomes law. By organizing an abstract opinion poll, the government just prepared a shit show, there no way to make any significant chunk of the population happy, everybody had…

> This is not the voter’s fault. Yes it is. Asked "do you want to fundamentally change status quo in some random yet to be decided way that most experts warn you will result in chaos" population should have voted "no". Population would have voted "no" if just a few more young people cared enough to get their asses to the voting booths. The lessons from Brexit are the same as the lessons from Trump in USA, Kaczyński i…

I think the problem is that consensus (51.9%) was made at the 30k ft. / 9km view (leave the EU).

The details were left to be sorted out later and that's where all the trouble is.

If the details of Brexit were included in the referendum, there wouldn't be any trouble in implementing it.

But, you can bet that the ~half of voters that wanted Brexit aren't even in agreement on how to implement it, let alone trying to gain the support of all those that never wanted it to begin with.

In the end the referendum was more of an opinion poll than legislation that voters could analyze and make an informed decision.

I don't think you can fault the voters for answering the questions put to them. It's not like the ballot comes with a comment box: "I want independence from the EU, but I'm also concerned that you didn't think through how to implement it." They just vote Yes and expect politicians to do their job.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#804

Post by desertedisland »

synotna wrote: post #715
smileypete wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So what could the EU have conceded that would have convinced the die-hard Brexiteers to opt for Remain? All it would have taken is to swing the referendum result by a few percentage points. Some moves towards reforming the EU to make it more democratic could have been welcome.

The EU is already far more democratic than the UK - see the house of lords, althought right now it is the sanest branch...

Turnout for EU elections runs less than 30% in the UK: nobody here knows who's in it, what they do or how they got there.

Oh I know you'll tell me of the ignorance and stupidity of the racist, little England British voter and how they need to be 're-educated' but this is hardly a mandate from the people is it?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#805

Post by raxxorrax »

alxh87 wrote: post #735
asabjorn wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot. It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies. It is i…

It's not that interesting. Manipulation was targeted at people more susceptible to it. I expect that most racism/sexism/bigotry generally comes from prior manipulation too.

My country was recently victim of a "hacker"-attack. Personal accounts of politicians were compromised. Everyone and their cats pointed their fingers at Russia.

In the end it was a younger pupil and far too many people used their surname as password.

I doubt that a significant part of the population are reiterating Kremlin-propaganda.

It seems to be a hysterical Red Scare 2.0, just from a different political side, that is just as opportunistic.

If you always see Putin in your dreams, I doubt you should point a finger on people and diagnose any form of manipulation.

There are certainly some bots, but I doubt Russia is represented disproportionally. Just the language barrier alone would lessen their numbers significantly. It often just serves as a convenient excuse for political defeat.

Putin is totalitarian dick. Why not just leave it at that instead of accusing people of asserting his will?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#806

Post by desertedisland »

Aeolun wrote: post #684
smileypete wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election It's a shitshow for sure, but at least it's a democratic shitshow. Democracy isn't always a bed of roses, sometimes i…

What did you expect them to do? The UK wants to leave, so lets give them some concessions to soften their stupidity? From the start the only one with any kind of power in the negotiations was the EU.

Hey man no problem, we'll just take the £30 billion divorce payment to help us with our stupidity.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#807

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

sbmthakur wrote: post #737
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

You make it look like the 'stay' campaign is not funded externally[1]. Obama had openly asked Britishers to vote "stay"[2]. I am not sure about Britain(or the West). But in most of the sovereign nations, this would be considered as foreign interference. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/29/george-soro... 2. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/obama-eu-britain-brex...

Ignorant dalit.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#808

Post by lmm »

yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

> Instead, they are trying to camouflage that reality with a bad deal that keeps Britain shackled to the EU for a number of years while losing all of the (substantial) influence it had over the way EU works. That's an anti-Brexit, the exact opposite of the independence and prosperity promised by brexiters. It was a bad deal and it's good that it failed.

It's a compromise, as all good deals are. Fundamentally it delivers what the democratic majority wants: continued free trade (which means alignment with EU technical regulations but not with general policy), but limited movement of people. It's not unfavourable to either side, it doesn't undermine the EU position (which already has an agreement with Turkey on very similar terms).

I hope that parliament can reconsider once it becomes clear that the alternative to this deal is a hard brexit. The deal was defeated only by an alliance of those who thought defeating it meant hard brexit and those who thought defeating it was somehow going to mean remain. At least one of those is wrong.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#809

Post by dTal »

lurquer wrote: post #396
jpfr wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "no deal" outcome, which is clearly bad, is still the best thing brexiters can actually deliver. It could go much much worse than just "bad". The UK imports a lot of food from EU neighbors. In case of a hard Brexit, this will just ... stop. The question is whether all supermarkets can immediately redo their supply chains. That is not likely. Especially since the UK will loose all trade agreements with the non-EU…

Corpses in the street? The UK imports around 25% of food-related commodities from the EU. Even with no deal, these imports will continue (as the EU has to sell them to someone.) Even if the EU stopped, there would not be corpses in the street as there happens to be a very wealthy English-speaking country not too far away that happens to produce more food than any country on the planet and is more than willing to trad…

I think you missed the point. The point is that 1) overnight disruption of existing supply chains is very likely, and 2) in today's last-minute food supply infrastructure, it only takes a few days for shelves to empty. Empty shelves = hungry people = riots.

So it's not a question of whether the US will trade with the UK, in the long run. It's a question of whether, 2 days after a hard Brexit, everyone has been well-organized enough to keep food flowing across the border at the same rate as always, despite the massive customs upheaval.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#810

Post by benj111 »

gdgegeg wrote: post #796
ajuc wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not the voter’s fault. Yes it is. Asked "do you want to fundamentally change status quo in some random yet to be decided way that most experts warn you will result in chaos" population should have voted "no". Population would have voted "no" if just a few more young people cared enough to get their asses to the voting booths. The lessons from Brexit are the same as the lessons from Trump in USA, Kaczyński i…

While generally in agreement, the "youth didn't vote" scapegoating is incorrect - their turnout numbers were roughly the same as other demographics. I really don't rate the Guardian for all of its content, this particular article explains well and is reasonably sourced https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-peopl...

Thanks for this, it's something I hadn't heard before.

Wouldn't exit polls record the ages of voters though? Seems strange that there's so little data on this.

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