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Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

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Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#121

Post by yellowbuilding »

mhss wrote: post #62
anth_anm wrote: post #5

It's not a corruption of capitalism, it's just capitalism. They found a market, they sell on that market. They dominate that market. That's capitalism, no need to make up a new term.

Not sure why you're being downvoted. I upvoted you. Those were my exact thoughts when reading. It appears to paint a rosy view of capitalism. As if some pure and moral capitalist rules were in place and they were 'corrupted' by evil Google and Facebook. I also wish we took some responsibility in this whole thing. We've let those companies grow by using their products and services, many times even knowing the personal…

Most westerners, and certainly visitors to this site, have spent at least the past 30 years in the assumption that neoliberal capitalism marks, as Fukiyama spouted in 1989 as the wall came down, “the end of history”. It’s becoming difficult to recite why this claim was taken for truth but there was a reason it felt that way.

It’s more than just admitting we are wrong. We also have to find a way out, and there isn’t one unless we all do it together.

You’re exactly right that we urgently need to move beyond the blame and recognize it’s up to all of us to get out of this mess.

Historical trajectories point to 2 possibilities for the United States: denialism followed by Fascism, or a miracle followed by socialism (of some degree). The miracle is a shortcut through the contradiction Upton Sinclair articulates: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#122

Post by stevenicr »

ppod wrote: post #67

>Many people, it seems clear, experience surveillance capitalism less as a prison, where their agency is restricted in a noxious way, than as an all-inclusive resort, where their agency is restricted in a pleasing way. The possibility that a free, democratic publishing platform increases the agency of the average citizen is not permitted here.

I like what you are pointing out here, however I think in what the quote is describing is true, in that google and facebook are censoring and moderating many things and increasing the visibility of engaging to the particular user things, is (unfortunately) restricting in a pleasing way.

however I think what you are pointing out is important, and I'd like to think that we are educating people to question what they see and hear, and that if they were surfing the whole web of the world, not the censored google view or fbook view - they indeed they would be able to increase their agency and continue to do so in many ways, rather than being restricted to a particular prude groups view of what advertisers may be comfortable with.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#123

Post by smnrchrds »

darkpuma wrote: post #106
angel_j wrote: post #80

Terms of Service are really out of control, and probably need a democratic checkup. One cannot sign away constitutional rights, which means somewhere there is a line to draw. When is a company abusing it's first amendment rights and dangerously coercing behavior, a la "yelling fire in theater"? At scale, this doesn't have to be explicitly extreme or violent to have actual extreme or violent effects. When is it going…

> "When is a company abusing it's first amendment rights and dangerously coercing behavior, a la "yelling fire in theater"?" I really wish people would stop using that example. That standard of free speech is obsolete, and it comes from an abhorrent case where a draft protestor during WWI was arrested for telling people to dodge the draft. "Yelling fire in a theater" was used to justify upholding his conviction. It's…

> That standard of free speech is obsolete

What is the modern example/standard?

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#124

Post by tokyodude »

ergothus wrote: post #24

I'm a bit torn on this - for a long while, I saw Google as trying to promote "the right way" of doing things, and only getting frustrated and doing it themselves after handset manufacturers and cell providers kept doing it wrong. I mean, was the original Nexus anything other than "look everyone, this is how it SHOULD be done, but we have no interest in actually being the ones to do it"? That doesn't deny that Google…

the most random thing ticked me from Google good toward Google evil yesterday when I discovered an Android app can choose whether or not youre allowed to take a screenshot. (I'm normally iOS but have a Pixel 2 for testing)

Apps imo should not have that control. It's my phone. I should be able to capture what I want. I shouldn't need to get out another device to take a picture of a bug or record a transaction for safe keeping.

That Google chose that solution struck me as heading down a Black mirror like path. I can imagine it won't be long before AI will decide if you can even take a picture of something. Someday we'll augment our eyes and they'll decide what we're allowed to see.

In their defense apparently they were trying to prevent background apps from spying on your screen. They just chose the wrong solution IMO. A solution I think will end up having far reaching consequences as a precedent of control.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#125

Post by yellowbuilding »

jahaja wrote: post #100
CptFribble wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ancient Rome was around 30-40% slaves, though there were many different kinds used in addition to chattel slavery (various forms of indentured servitude, etc), so it's hard to make clear comparisons. However, the Roman empire wouldn't have existed in it's highest form without slaves. They were integral to the economy.

I remember reading that the Greeks or Romans would probably consider today's average wage earner a slave. Interesting to ponder about.

[dead]

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#126

Post by skh »

humanrebar wrote: post #113
tracker1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the concept of corporate free speech, person-hood and "too big to let fail."

Freedom is assembly and freedom of speech add up to freedom of group speech, including unions, political groups, ethnic groups, and so on. I don't know why corporations would be special groups without that right. But, yeah, corporate personhood and bailouts need to be revisited. It's too bad that we need to have a functional policital culture to make any significant changes like that.

I own some Apple stock. I don’t influence in any meaningful way how Apple spends its money. I don’t influence in any meaningful way their corporate policy. The owners of Apple, save for a few individuals, don’t have a real say in how Apple uses its freedom of speech. Apple is not a group of people coming together in the same way political organizations are and Apple/Google/Exxon, etc. have far more money to send on political speech than any other organized group of people.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#127

Post by rib3ye »

elliekelly wrote: post #99
contingencies wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My CEO in the mobile video space explained the rise of smartphones to me very simply: economically, it was about transferring ownership of the customer from the carrier to the device manufacturer. Apple doubled down and broke the established mold by demanding ownership if carriers wanted their devices. Google whose entire house of cards is based on the web advertising model, had to respond. They responded by providin…

This is so true. Even on iPhone. I was recently traveling abroad and lost my debit card so I cancelled it. I had a credit card for the remainder of my travels but I wanted to wait to replace my iTunes/App Store payment with my new debit card number instead of my credit card. Well when Apple tried to run my disabled debit card for my monthly fees (Apple Music, extra iCloud storage space, etc.) the card didn't work and…

Not sure I see the problem, you can still access everything you've paid for to date, I think it's fair. If you were to leave stuff with a storage company and let payment lapse, they would hold it as collateral until you paid.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#128

Post by yellowbuilding »

int_19h wrote: post #89
chii wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery is orthogonal to capitalism. Slavery is the belief that humans can be owned as property. I suppose if property ownership is part of capitalism, then they have this slight connection, as communism is the abolishment of property ownership, and therefore, slavery would be impossible under communism.

The usual argument is that slavery is not market-efficient in an industrial economy, and, on the other hand, capitalism inevitably leads to an industrial economy, thus killing slavery in the process. It's a contested theory, though.

[dead]

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#129

Post by naveen99 »

skh wrote: post #126
humanrebar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom is assembly and freedom of speech add up to freedom of group speech, including unions, political groups, ethnic groups, and so on. I don't know why corporations would be special groups without that right. But, yeah, corporate personhood and bailouts need to be revisited. It's too bad that we need to have a functional policital culture to make any significant changes like that.

I own some Apple stock. I don’t influence in any meaningful way how Apple spends its money. I don’t influence in any meaningful way their corporate policy. The owners of Apple, save for a few individuals, don’t have a real say in how Apple uses its freedom of speech. Apple is not a group of people coming together in the same way political organizations are and Apple/Google/Exxon, etc. have far more money to send on p…

You can sell your shares if you think Apple is spending money that is not good for making its shareholders more money. You selling shares will have non zero impact on the market price of Apple shares.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#130

Post by chillacy »

mudil wrote: post #19
harryh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When were "journalists, bloggers, etc." ever making money by creating content online? I don't think Google has anything to do with them having a big problem doing this successfully.

Journalism is a profession, and a very important one.

Can you back that up instead of repeating a slogan? I happen to largely agree with you but just saying “X is good” leaves out a lot of details with regard to what is X, how is good defined, etc
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