Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament • Hacker News Board

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#491

Post by clappski » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #477

DDub wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not an implementation of double jeopardy? Since the referendum new facts have come to light, that of what an exit deal would look like. New facts should allow for a new vote. If remain had won, there would be no new facts so why would another vote be justified?

Do you honestly think it is healthy for democracy if the UK is forced into remaining?

Forced into remaining by a second democratic referendum, held due to the uncovering of lies and nebulous accounting of the leave campaign that the full extent of hasn’t been fully uncovered?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#492

Post by growlist » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #323

avar wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no winning here, and there is no situation in which we get to revoke Article 50 and the UK remains in the EU and all is well. The ECJ has said that the UK can just revoke article 50 and stay in the EU[1]. I understand how this might be political suicide for some in the UK, but there is the option of takesies backsies (although that would happen to e.g. the EMA is unclear). So one option is to hold another…

The ECJ is so hated by Leavers that taking their advice could see Parliament being burned to the ground. It being legally possible is not the same as it being even remotely possible at this stage. What needs to happen is the Leavers need to realise that No Deal isn't acceptable (they don't), and that more time is needed for a better deal or that it gets democratic backing. Unfortunately, Parliament has already kind o…

> No Deal isn't acceptable

to whom?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#493

Post by Krasnol » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #345

hanoz wrote: post #334

The deal was the worst of all worlds and deliberately designed to fail. The whole project since the referendum has been to work towards the palatable introduction of a second referendum whilst spending the intervening time demonstrating the impossibility of a good deal and the awfulness of no deal. We will now proceed to run down the clock towards the no deal 'cliff edge' and as the precipice looms go to the EU askin…

I read your post as quite confident, but a lot of people were equally confident that the original referendum would be a strong Remain victory. What are you basing these predictions on?

I'd say mainly for those reasons:

1) It was quite an embarrassment for all those young people who did not vote and will suffer now

2) the actual results of a Brexit are known now while the bus-advertisement that was supposed to be the benefits of a Brexit are gone and have not been replaced by anything

Also all those news about businesses reorienting towards Europe and away from UK, Ireland, people applying for EU countries citizenship and so on.

The real results became real while the people who are still for a Brexit have shown their ugly faces.

I'm pretty optimistic about the results of a second referendum. That's why the Brexiteers will never allow it.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#494

Post by rusk » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #271

RafiqM wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is preventing the referendum from being declared stupid and that the UK gov't is not going to do it Essentially, they want to honor the will of the people. The will of the people, by democratic vote, was to leave the EU. With that in mind, they have no options that are in any way good: 1) Push ahead and exit with no-deal (economically disastrous) 2) Push ahead and exit with the proposed deal (economically bad…

I don't get how going back to the people is political suicide and creates distrust. I mean the first question was do you want to leave and the vote was yes. The second would be that now we know the facts were not entirely as advertised do you still want to go ahead? Not sure how that is betrayal, political suicide and the like - it seems fairly fair and sensible.

> it seems fairly fair and sensible

You must be new here :-)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#495

Post by hardlianotion » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #142

Here's what happens next: - A motion of no confidence has been tabled and will be debated and voted on tomorrow - If the motion carries (i.e. the Government loses): 1. Theresa May must resign as Prime Minister 2. There can be a 14 day window in which a new government is formed, which must be approved by a motion of confidence. This is likely to be waived 3. There will be a general election. Theresa May will remain le…

"It will leave 17m people in an absolute rage, and they have already murdered one MP."

This is not appropriate.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#496

Post by flukus » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #438

rtkwe wrote: post #270

The issue with the referendum since the beginning was leave was such a nebulous cloud for the entire range of Brexit from barely-there-Brexit to Britian-stands-alone(-get-those-people-out)-Brexit while remain had a very definite meaning. Because of that everyone could pour all their displeasure at anything wrong into leave and think the deal would take care of it. That's why I'm always annoyed at the 'another referen…

> That's why I'm always annoyed at the 'another referendum would tarnish democracy' line I'm annoyed for another reason: first, in 1975, [1], there was a referendum that asked the British people if they would want to join the EEC. Then, in 2016, there was a referendum that asked them if they would want to leave the EU. So if there can be a second, then why can't there be a third? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His…

That's not a second referendum, it's a fundamentally different one because the EEC is not the EU. If there had been a vote to join the EU (and on the other changes since) then it would have a lot more legitimacy and this mess probably would not exist, one way or the other.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#497

Post by GrumpyNl » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

Who want to stay in this EU is beyond me.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#498

Post by growlist » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #228

blowski wrote: post #84

It feels like the country is roughly divided into 3 equal bits: * Leave EU quickly, at any cost * Don’t really mind either way, as long as economy is stable * Stay in EU The one in the middle doesn’t trust either of the others. So nobody can get a majority, whether we have another referendum or a general election. So this shitstorm will just go on and on.

Of course, the only way to get the "economy is stable" result in the short term is to stay in the EU, or to make a deal that's effectively "stay in the EU, but also lose all political power in the EU".

Or, the EU starts thinking pragmatically and offers a proper deal.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#499

Post by mattlondon » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:54 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #490

mattlondon wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

17m people might be in a rage, but the other 16m are equally in a rage, but I've not seen any civil war here yet. With respect, I think you are grossly over-reacting by mentioning civil war. If it goes to a second referendum and remain win, then that is the "will of the people", not politicians/Westminster elite/EU telling people how to live their lives, it's the fellow man and woman on the street making the decision…

Ageism: one of the few remaining socially acceptable types of hate!

Not ageism - the facts are older people were more likely to have voted for Brexit.

As for how effective a 18 year old Vs a 65 year old would be (all other things being equal) in a fight I guess could be considered ageist, and for that I apologise.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#500

Post by growlist » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 10:55 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #179

usgroup wrote: post #69

Ahhhh fudge ... People’s vote ... it might just happen. May now has to chat with the opposition, understand what it’d take to vote yes , take that to Europe, bring back a compromise ... vote again, get that accepted. People’s vote is starting to look like the more likely outcome... had she lost by say 50 or 100 votes ... ok but 432 vs 202 ?! 230 votes to claw back somehow .

The EU already said there will be no renegotiation. That's why May put the current draft up for a vote in the first place, even tho she knew it would likely fail.

Well they would say that, wouldn't they?