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Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

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Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#31

Post by buboard »

watwut wrote: post #29
buboard wrote: post #25

I m sure if the book is as described, it's going to be very popular with the HN crowd, however one has to wonder if what is claimed is true. If the ability to mold the behaviors of people has increased , then why were people spending a lot more in the 1920s for advertising than they are now[1]? Why did online ad spending surpass TV only in 2017, and TV advertising keeps rising as well[2]? If anything, the conclusion…

Because in 1920 one ad reached less people and required more effort to produce and competition now is fierce so prices had to drop? The stats you show does not have all that much to do with ease of convincing someone and could be explained by millions other ways.

so you think the market is wrong about the value of advertising? if you have tried online advertising perhaps you know how terribly inefficient it can be.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#32

Post by ellius »

chris_mc wrote: post #17
tjr225 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP is fairly opaque in their acceptance of socialist ideas- perhaps if you disagree enough to comment the very least you could do is provide some substance.

I don't expect substance from Hacker News capitalists, they're the type of people who buy into the whole "if it's legal, it's ethical" stance of SV tech companies like Google and Facebook. I expect down votes and logical fallacy when I spout my pinko commie drivel here.

I'm a counterexample to your statement about Hacker News capitalists. I certainly don't consider Facebook's behavior ethical, even if it is legal. But I also think democratic societies with capitalist economies have been the best of a lot of bad options. The human race has not yet designed any better system as far as I can tell. You seem to be picturing mostly the libertarian types, but there are lots of other shades of capitalism. I would consider myself a moderate capitalist: someone who sees the value in capitalism but feels it needs to be regulated.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#33

Post by watwut »

andrenth wrote: post #22
meroes wrote: post #8

[flagged]

Slavery predates capitalism, it’s definitely not a consequence of it. In fact, since slaves can’t be consumers, capitalism works as an incentive for freedom.

Surveillance exists with or without capitalism too, nevertheless we do analogical complain about capitalism being corrupted by it. Why the difference?

Having slaves was profitable. A lot profitable. The only capitalist incentive for freedom was that north laborers did not wanted to compete with slaves. Competing with slaveholders sux, because slaves are cheaper and free men social status goes down if he do slaves like work. The rest of anti-slavery arguments had zero to do with "slaves will consume" nonsense that is absurd contemporary construction.

Once the other guy own slaves, his competitors have to buy slaves on their own, because free people require more salaries. So if you don't use them, your company won't be able to compete on price. That is how market makes slavery more and more common, assuming there is enough slaves available (either by transport or breeding) and no laws to prevent it.

Slavery existed for long. However, there were not that many societies where slave ownership was that large part of wealth and livestyle.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#34

Post by yourapostasy »

mudil wrote: post #19
harryh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When were "journalists, bloggers, etc." ever making money by creating content online? I don't think Google has anything to do with them having a big problem doing this successfully.

Journalism is a profession, and a very important one.

For the importance to hold true, the profession as a whole must solve the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#35

Post by chewz »

Spooky23 wrote: post #6
blub wrote: post #2

Worth reading even for those who already read the NYT review, as it nicely explains the timeline of how we got into this situation. Fully agree that Google and Facebook are mainly to blame. As an example, Google's success in surveillance and pacifying critics through open source trinkets almost definitely convinced Microsoft to try its hand at the same game. And now the two biggest operating system developers are spy…

Do you see Google and Facebook as equals in terms of badness? Honestly, I’ve always perceived Google as less insidious than Facebook. To me FB is more in your face, channeling your behavior. Google seems more passive and delivers more utility. What am I missing?

Personally I think Facebook is beyond saving. They are toxic for democracy, their core business is invading people's privacy and I wish they go bust as soon as possible.

Google on the other hand ain't that bad. They do deliver a lot of value, they have some extraordinary products. They are also pretty unlucky in business (most of their products are failures plain and simple).

I think that for Google it is just a phase and they will soon wake up and realize that being part of surveillance capitalism is harming the company and diminishing its value.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#36

Post by ezoe »

Animats wrote: post #4

"Anyone who tries to remove a pre-installed Google app from an Android phone, for instance, will likely be confronted by a vague but menacing warning: “If you disable this app, other apps may no longer function as intended.” This is a coy, high-tech form of blackmail: “Give us your data, or the phone dies.” They're bluffing. Turning off Google Drive, Google Duo, Google Gmail, Google Play Movies and TV, Google Play Mo…

Don't overestimate the customer.

"I don't like Google Maps and I deleted it. Now I can't see the map! Fix it now!"

"I see. There are competing map services available."

"That's not the map I want. I want the map!(Google Maps)"

"You can use a browser."

"Browser? What is it? I simply want to use map!"

"If you really wan to use the Google Maps from the app. Then you have to install the app called Google Maps"

"I don't understand you! Speak English! FIX IT! FIX IT!"

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#37

Post by watwut »

buboard wrote: post #31
watwut wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in 1920 one ad reached less people and required more effort to produce and competition now is fierce so prices had to drop? The stats you show does not have all that much to do with ease of convincing someone and could be explained by millions other ways.

so you think the market is wrong about the value of advertising? if you have tried online advertising perhaps you know how terribly inefficient it can be.

Low price means a lot of competitors and cheap to be made. High price means expensive to make or scarcity.

Market is right, but price has little to do with how easy it is to convince people. Mineral watter is cheap and it is not because it is not valuable. It is because there is ton of it and if you sell it expensively, I will buy cheaper one.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#38

Post by jdblair »

hinkley wrote: post #28
jdblair wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then spend a significant amount of my free time maintaining my phone. This is not a realistic recommendation for a non-technical phone user who just want their device to work. (I'm not just tossing this out there, I put Cyanogen on a Nexus 5 for a while.)

This is how so many developers ended up on OS X. They wanted bash and the command line, but they got tired of dicking around with their machine all day.

Exactly! I made the same calculation 8 years ago, though now the cost Apple hardware has me reconsidering a PC with Linux for my next personal laptop.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#39

Post by [deleted] »

chewz wrote: post #35
Spooky23 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see Google and Facebook as equals in terms of badness? Honestly, I’ve always perceived Google as less insidious than Facebook. To me FB is more in your face, channeling your behavior. Google seems more passive and delivers more utility. What am I missing?

Personally I think Facebook is beyond saving. They are toxic for democracy, their core business is invading people's privacy and I wish they go bust as soon as possible. Google on the other hand ain't that bad. They do deliver a lot of value, they have some extraordinary products. They are also pretty unlucky in business (most of their products are failures plain and simple). I think that for Google it is just a phas…

[deleted]

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#40

Post by mulmen »

Spooky23 wrote: post #6
blub wrote: post #2

Worth reading even for those who already read the NYT review, as it nicely explains the timeline of how we got into this situation. Fully agree that Google and Facebook are mainly to blame. As an example, Google's success in surveillance and pacifying critics through open source trinkets almost definitely convinced Microsoft to try its hand at the same game. And now the two biggest operating system developers are spy…

Do you see Google and Facebook as equals in terms of badness? Honestly, I’ve always perceived Google as less insidious than Facebook. To me FB is more in your face, channeling your behavior. Google seems more passive and delivers more utility. What am I missing?

Google has far more reach online than FB. The risks and harms with FB are largely social. Google is scary because of the type and amount of data they have and the amount of influence they have over the direction of the internet.

Both companies scare the hell out of me but for different reasons.

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