Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament • Hacker News Board

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#331

Post by balabaster » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #175

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10-4. Why is she being resoundedly disapproved upon by her own gov't? Presumably, the same gov't that put forth this vote? At least some significant margin of politicians must have wanted this vote knowing that 'yes' is on the table. Where are they?

The problem is that the politics are not partisan and instead divide the main parties. It would be similar to half the republicans and half the democrats agreeing on a key policy & fundamentally disagreeing with the other half of their respective parties. (it's actually even worse than that because there are at least 3 main positions [hard exit, soft exit, no exit] which divide the two main parties, meaning nothing r…

Also a rather large portion of the population didn't take the vote seriously. When it came out that it was a complete clusterfuck, those voters who either voted just to stick it to the man or didn't bother to vote are now rightly panicking that this train wreck that we can't look away from is like the asteroid that hit the Yucatan peninsula and killed off the dinosaurs and there's fuck all we can do about it.

Oh well, you live and learn.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#332

Post by andrewmcwatters » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

siquick wrote: post #60

simonbarker87 wrote: post #47

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it s…

It wasn't 52% of the country though. The voter turnout was 72% and that excludes the millions of under 18s who will be affected by this the most.

Children should not be able to vote.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#333

Post by empath75 » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #142

Here's what happens next: - A motion of no confidence has been tabled and will be debated and voted on tomorrow - If the motion carries (i.e. the Government loses): 1. Theresa May must resign as Prime Minister 2. There can be a 14 day window in which a new government is formed, which must be approved by a motion of confidence. This is likely to be waived 3. There will be a general election. Theresa May will remain le…

> She will go back to the EU and demand a new deal, likely with a hard time limit on the NI backstop, the main issue that caused tonight's defeat

Don't think that's going to be enough to swing 230 votes.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#334

Post by hanoz » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

The deal was the worst of all worlds and deliberately designed to fail. The whole project since the referendum has been to work towards the palatable introduction of a second referendum whilst spending the intervening time demonstrating the impossibility of a good deal and the awfulness of no deal.

We will now proceed to run down the clock towards the no deal 'cliff edge' and as the precipice looms go to the EU asking for an extension. The EU will say you can only have an extension for a second referendum, which we will hold and remain will win.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#335

Post by moduspol » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #279

kodablah wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just seems reasonable to have another vote. It seems absolutely unreasonable to me. It's hard to measure how certain tactics influenced the vote on either side. The voting process needs to be done with confidence and we should not so easily assume our peers are misinformed and/or so easily swayed. The efforts put forth by legitimate actors to campaign for their cause goes for not, as does confidence in the democ…

The voting process does need to be done with confidence. In the first vote Leave were referred to the police for illegality, and they still haven't provided a full account of their funding - at least some of which seems very likely to have come from foreign sources. This is explicitly and very clearly not legal, because foreign money has no business trying to influence the vote in a sovereign British matter. So a Peo…

Cases like these could be made after any election ever, and we're going down a dark road by presuming this time is any different.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#336

Post by cm2187 » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #311

balabaster wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are governed ultimately by the Prime Minister. So they do what she tells them to, ultimately making her the most important person.

Actually, I believe the armed forces of the UK actually take an oath of allegiance to the ruling monarch rather than to the state/government - I did think this didn't mean very much but I have raised the point with a serving army officer and he was rather insistent that they take it seriously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kin...

The wikipedia article [1] suggests that this is formal only and that the army is under the control of the parliament, which was also my understanding.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#337

Post by bsder » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #84

It feels like the country is roughly divided into 3 equal bits: * Leave EU quickly, at any cost * Don’t really mind either way, as long as economy is stable * Stay in EU The one in the middle doesn’t trust either of the others. So nobody can get a majority, whether we have another referendum or a general election. So this shitstorm will just go on and on.

So, basically, you have three groups:

1) Angry idiots

2) Idiots

3) Realists

I feel sorry for you. It looks like you have the same problems as US politics.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#338

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

> If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode.

The UK already picked and chose the parts of EU membership they wanted. They opted out of the Euro, they opted out of Schengen, they opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights--all of this, and more, on the threat of leaving the EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#339

Post by ed_elliott_asc » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

cryptonector wrote: post #306

Article 50 exists. The UK can leave on WTO terms and the EU cannot stop it. The EU has some incentives (money) to give the UK some other deal than WTO terms, and it has some incentives (avoiding a rush to the exits) to give the UK nothing more than WTO terms. As it happens the UK is wealthier than other EU countries that might head for the exits if they thought they could get as good a deal as the UK, but no one thin…

The brexiteers weren’t sidelined, they were given foreign office and dept for brexit, they were just useless and incompetent

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#340

Post by r00fus » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

RafiqM wrote: post #223

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #99

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> What is preventing the referendum from being declared stupid and that the UK gov't is not going to do it Essentially, they want to honor the will of the people. The will of the people, by democratic vote, was to leave the EU. With that in mind, they have no options that are in any way good: 1) Push ahead and exit with no-deal (economically disastrous) 2) Push ahead and exit with the proposed deal (economically bad…

Why would #3 and #4 be suicide? Maybe for PM May, but doubtful the Remain MPs and those who "found out how bad Leave was" would actually claim a political boost?