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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#101

Post by Simon_says »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #85
m0zg wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

Yes, definitely. Override uneducated decisions that harm the republic, regardless of "the will of the people" [1] [2] [3] [4]. That is exactly why republics exist versus direct democracy. “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” -- Winston Churchill (edit: supposedly Churchill did not say this; I'm keeping it, as it helps express the idea) Disclaimer: American [1] ht…

Wowzers

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#102

Post by albertgoeswoof »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #82
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Referendums are not democratic they are a tool employed by an incumbent to back up a position. Democracy generally requires voting for representatives that serve your best interests on issues that matter to you. It’s not about choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Well the tories where voted into power due to the promise of giving the people a vote on EU membership... sounds democratic to me.

Which they fully expected to win. It was just a calculated risk which went wrong.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#103

Post by mrec »

yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

> they are trying to camouflage that reality with a bad deal

They're not, May is, and May is not a Brexiter. The Brexiters generally are pushing to leave on WTO terms, not so much as a preferred end state but in recognition of the fact that only a genuine commitment to doing so has any chance of convincing the EU to agree to sensible terms such as Canada+. If the EU can keep the UK under its thumb forever then of course it will, and it would be unreasonable to expect it to do otherwise.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#104

Post by gonehome »

yholio wrote: post #87
gonehome wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense. Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

What if the consequences are instability or large scale war?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#106

Post by UK-Al05 »

jcranmer wrote: post #59
tunesmith wrote: post #2

The whole thing seems like a slow motion train wreck, except with the potentially and arguably happy outcome of them remaining in the EU.

The "best" solution to this problem is to cancel Brexit. Even that solution would cause a massive political blowback and only deepen the current divides that exist today. The "fantasy" solution is that the government can somehow negotiate a better deal for Brexit. But this is pure fantasy. For starters, there is severe disagreement as to what kind of deal ought to be pursued among the people who dislike May's deal. M…

Most brexiters I know admit that a hard brexit would be bad economically.

But are willing to pay the cost

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#107

Post by NeedMoreTea »

jbottoms wrote: post #67

What I find curious through this whole affair is the silence on the topic by the U.S. For two countries that share a "Special Relationship" I had expected to hear the State Dept. say something. After all, major changes in governance by a close ally is bound to have secondary effects. And, please don't tell me that the Special Relationship is just a put-on show. It is set in numerous treaties between the U.S. and U.K.…

What is the point of a special relationship with a UK out of the EU? It conferred benefits for both sides whilst the UK was some mid-Atlantic bridge between the EU and US. I seem to remember the (ex?) US ambassador speaking quite strongly on the topic, as have the many UK diplomats who've resigned over the issue.

I'd be more inclined to believe the US ending up with a special relationship with another EU nation. FiveEyes will probably survive as a special relationship, but I would expect there to be a wish to add someone inside the EU for SIGINT purposes. Possibly as an entirely separate arrangement excluding that now insignificant island nation.

Ireland would be my bet, on both counts.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#108

Post by grey-area »

vinceguidry wrote: post #56
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #29

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Brexit is a real problem that the human race is faced with. There can be no higher question than that of what rules people should be using to deal with each other. For most of human history the rules were imposed by force. You open your market because if you don't, I'll escalate from sending a strongly worded missive all the way up to sending my armies to pillage your countryside. Recently we've moved to a more contr…

This may yet lead to war. If the EU starts to disintegrate, I expect to see war in Europe as a result.

I do have some sympathy with the argument Brexit is a waste of resources, it matters of course but if people were sold lies that can never happen (good trade relations with a trade bloc you just left, low immigration and a strong economy, freedom of services and goods but not of people), that’s a waste of everyone’s time and money for years, it’s not a serious political argument, it’s a deadly pantomime which undermines representative democracy and encourages extremists and fascists. We’ve already seen one MP murdered by extremists (Jo Cox).

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#109

Post by School-Cotton »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #39
MatekCopatek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this would imply a public referendum is impotent - if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later.

How are referendums brought to a vote? We don't have such a thing in the US. Certain states do, but not the country.

The British Parliament can do basically whatever it wants. The concepts of separation of powers and Constitutionally-mandated red tape are much less developed than in the United States.

So the answer to why anything happened in the UK, including holding a referendum, is basically just: because Parliament decided to.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#110

Post by MatekCopatek »

aurailious wrote: post #64
MatekCopatek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this would imply a public referendum is impotent - if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later.

> if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later. Quite honestly, there is nothing stopping you from doing this anyways. This is the point of democracy. Nothing is ever final.

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply it's not possible, it just hurts your public image. They're looking for a solution that also lets them keep their jobs.
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