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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#71

Post by m0zg »

Of course it "failed". The government did everything it could to sabotage it and arrive at as unfavorable a set of exit conditions as possible. Even if she did want to get a good deal, May doesn't strike me as a cutthroat negotiator. Couple this with her unwillingness to abide by the will of the people (the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy), and you get this. This was 100% predictable right from the start.

Like elections, referenda have consequences. You don't get a re-do just because you didn't like the outcome. To say otherwise opens you up to the same kind of bullshit when things turn out the way you like and the _other_ side doesn't like the result.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#72

Post by bbrazil »

BossingAround wrote: post #70

All I can think of is, why? I don't know what were the main points against the deal, but the only reason I can think of that the deal is rejected is that Corbin, or whoever else would come out of this kerfuffle victorious, wants to re-issue vote on leaving the EU in order to stay..? This is insanely puzzling to me, and very much unexpected. Can someone ELI5..? Or maybe ELI15 would be enough.

The deal isn't a hard Brexit for the Brexiters, and isn't a remain for the remainers.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#73

Post by phoe-krk »

usgroup wrote: post #69

Ahhhh fudge ... People’s vote ... it might just happen. May now has to chat with the opposition, understand what it’d take to vote yes , take that to Europe, bring back a compromise ... vote again, get that accepted. People’s vote is starting to look like the more likely outcome... had she lost by say 50 or 100 votes ... ok but 432 vs 202 ?! 230 votes to claw back somehow .

Not 230 votes; 115 will be enough to even the result. Still, it's a massive difference.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#74

Post by MatekCopatek »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #39
MatekCopatek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this would imply a public referendum is impotent - if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later.

How are referendums brought to a vote? We don't have such a thing in the US. Certain states do, but not the country.

Depends on the country. In Slovenia you have to collect 40k supporter signatures or have ~1/3 of the parliament support it. And a referendum can only cancel already passed laws, it cannot pass a new law.

The one they had in UK was a non-binding one, which can usually only be brought to a vote by the parliament.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#75

Post by CodeGlitch »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #52
CodeGlitch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because democracy, whilst not perfect, is the best system we have for civilisation to continue. As someone who voted remain, I have to say that we now have to leave the EU. If Brexit was to be stopped by Parliment, the damage to UK politics would last a generation. People would simply loose faith in the system, giving rise to more extreme political parties - and we all know where that leads to. If I was in charge, I'…

Out of interest (also a remainer here) what do you think to the argument that since every 5 years we get to change the government if we want to and if the Leave campaigners basically lied to the electorate, we should get a second vote?

There was definitely lying on both sides. I couldn't say who lied more - but I think the voting public are more intelligent than that, and could see through the messages written on the side of buses.

The idea of a 2nd vote is undemocratic if you ask me. Keep asking the question until you give us the answer we want! There was enough debate and arguing the first time around - let's just leave and move on with our lives.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#76

Post by toomuchtodo »

m0zg wrote: post #71

Of course it "failed". The government did everything it could to sabotage it and arrive at as unfavorable a set of exit conditions as possible. Even if she did want to get a good deal, May doesn't strike me as a cutthroat negotiator. Couple this with her unwillingness to abide by the will of the people (the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy), and you get this. This w…

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#77

Post by toosangiforthis »

ceejayoz wrote: post #66
vinceguidry wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit is a real problem that the human race is faced with. There can be no higher question than that of what rules people should be using to deal with each other. For most of human history the rules were imposed by force. You open your market because if you don't, I'll escalate from sending a strongly worded missive all the way up to sending my armies to pillage your countryside. Recently we've moved to a more contr…

> The EU is a phenomenally novel way of integrating sovereign nation-states into a singular political entity, that happened without war. Not just without war, but between nations that've been regularly at war with each other (in various iterations) for well over a thousand years. It's a pretty remarkable achievement.

EU has achieved more than most political unions by solving Franco-German rivalries and establishing a common Coal and Steel market for both countries

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#78

Post by jarcane »

gonehome wrote: post #55
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

Nigel Farage is a media-created bogey man, a hack to the system of “equal time”. He isn’t actually representative of anyone, even his own useless party, as polls and election results have consistently shown.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#79

Post by hacker_9 »

usgroup wrote: post #69

Ahhhh fudge ... People’s vote ... it might just happen. May now has to chat with the opposition, understand what it’d take to vote yes , take that to Europe, bring back a compromise ... vote again, get that accepted. People’s vote is starting to look like the more likely outcome... had she lost by say 50 or 100 votes ... ok but 432 vs 202 ?! 230 votes to claw back somehow .

I wonder what it's like being her sometimes, where you have, and will continue to fail at everything you do for years on end, in the most public and embarrassing way possible. I can't quite figure out if she is driven by just really wanting brexit, or it's just a power grab.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#80

Post by blibble »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #52
CodeGlitch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because democracy, whilst not perfect, is the best system we have for civilisation to continue. As someone who voted remain, I have to say that we now have to leave the EU. If Brexit was to be stopped by Parliment, the damage to UK politics would last a generation. People would simply loose faith in the system, giving rise to more extreme political parties - and we all know where that leads to. If I was in charge, I'…

Out of interest (also a remainer here) what do you think to the argument that since every 5 years we get to change the government if we want to and if the Leave campaigners basically lied to the electorate, we should get a second vote?

the electorate is aware that politicians lie
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