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Lies We Tell Kids

paulgraham.com

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Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#241

Post by dr__zeuss »

pg wrote: post #123
astine wrote: post #22

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? The reason that parents don't want kids to swear is because they genuinely believe that it is wrong for some reason. The don't know the reason themselves, and so break the rule and become hypocrites, but they still believe that it is wrong and want their children to do better than they did. With regard to group identity (and religion,) most parents actually ad…

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? There are senses of the word that include that, but I meant mostly things parents say knowing they're false, or at least that they'd admit were false if questioned.

In that case, I wonder if religion counts as a lie. Lots of religious people either truly believe, or have done a great job of tricking themselves into thinking they believe.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#242

Post by te_platt »

paddy_m wrote: post #218
Prrometheus wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding to half your post, there are cultures (such as farms) where death is dealt with more frankly, and it doesn't seem to cause harm to children outside of making them more practical.

One time I called my friend with some land in Texas, his 7 year old daughter picked up the phone. I asked "Can I speak with you Dad?", She said "sure he is feeding the chickens". I asked, "Do you name the chickens?". She replied "No, because we eat them, they taste good". Very innocent, cute response, from a very well adjusted kid.

My inlaws once raised a couple of turkeys. They did name them. Thanksgiving and Christmas. They tasted good.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#243

Post by xlnt »

astine wrote: post #144
pg wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? There are senses of the word that include that, but I meant mostly things parents say knowing they're false, or at least that they'd admit were false if questioned.

Thanks for the clarification. It seems to me then, that some of the situations that you describe are more often not lies but situations where parent actually believes it himself.

Which?

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#244

Post by aaronsw »

epi0Bauqu wrote: post #229
epi0Bauqu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few short follow-up questions: 1) Is any "development" part of suburbia? 2) What if there were multiple developers building the houses? 3) What if it is x miles from a town center? 4) What if the owners built their own houses in the development? Let's get specific using the Boston area as an example. 5) Do you think any parts of Cambridge count as suburbia? 6) Do you think any of the following areas/towns count as…

Why am I getting voted down for this--are these not legitimate questions? I am just trying to understand the definition of suburbia in this context.

Because understanding the notion of suburbia at that level of detail can't possibly be useful or relevant.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#245

Post by aaronsw »

wumi wrote: post #96

"It's obvious now that he was on the list because he was black (and for that matter that Marie Curie was on it because she was a woman), but as a kid I was confused for years about him. I wonder if it wouldn't have been better just to tell us the truth: that there weren't any famous black scientists. Ranking George Washington Carver with Einstein misled us not only about science, but about the obstacles blacks faced…

I suspect a black scientist was included not because of powerful groups but because of guilt on the part of teachers who wanted to appear racially-sensitive.

I remember that as a kid, between PBS and the racial sensitivity of my all-white suburban school, I lived in complete terror of doing or saying something that could be seen as racist.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#246

Post by epi0Bauqu »

aaronsw wrote: post #244
epi0Bauqu wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why am I getting voted down for this--are these not legitimate questions? I am just trying to understand the definition of suburbia in this context.

Because understanding the notion of suburbia at that level of detail can't possibly be useful or relevant.

I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't think it was useful and relevant :)

The essay spends a few paragraphs on it, hence its relevance. That is certainly the same level of relevance of some of the other upvoted comments on this thread.

The usefulness is two-fold: 1) I think the essay suggests a very black and white picture of what is suburbia and what is not, yet does not define it at all. I am trying to get to the core of that definition (if there really is one). Pg responded to my question, but didn't make it that much clearer, hence the follow-up questions. And 2) if you believe the essay, you presumably want to avoid suburbia, so it would be useful to know what it is!

The essay suggests that the only reason people move to suburbia is to have kids. I'm totally unsure whether pg or anyone else would say I live in suburbia (I would guess so though), and yet I don't have kids nor moved here to have kids. And I don't think where I live is suffocatingly fake either.

The truth is there are many, many types of different living environments in the US and other countries, and not all places near but not in city limits are unappealing. The questions attempt to start to delineate which parts in particular are being attacked. Is this really an attack on geography or housing style or is it an attack on the average person who lives outside the city?

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#247

Post by sofal »

emmett wrote: post #207
sofal wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense that some of the disagreements that I have with Paul Graham are deeply fundamental and have to do with the fabric and meaning of our existence. First of all, I'm a religious person. This I have seen immediately qualifies me for ridicule from some on a forum such as this, as believing in God is seen as the logical equivalent to believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. If you think I am totally deluded be…

I agree that there is right and wrong, even though I'm not religious. I agree you can try to teach your children right and wrong. I disagree that just because you have good intentions and are trying to teach good values, that this means that what you are telling your children is truthful. Most parents exaggerate the danger of sex, drugs (including alcohol), and video games (these have taken the place of rock and roll…

I can definitely see your points. Having good intentions and trying to teach good values is a good start, but it certainly doesn't imply that what you're teaching is truthful.

My dad was quite opposed to video games, and he even tried to get me to stop playing Quake after the shootings at Columbine (didn't work). Parents can misunderstand the uses and dangers of technology that never existed when they were young. It's easier for them to just dismiss the whole rather than try to understand. I think it's much better to stress the underlying values rather than the superficial rules or my own faulty interpretation of how to apply those values.

You're right that I would not be swayed by people justifying things in terms of the will of Ganesh. In fact, I would not be swayed by mere arguments in terms of the will of any supernatural being. I do not see gullibility as a positive trait of any human being, religious or not. I certainly don't expect to find it here, and that is a very good thing. If I justify my arguments in terms of the will of the god I believe in, then they are weak indeed. I think there is a common ground where we can reason with each other. My defensive comments about the anticipated anti-religious tone here were not appropriate or at least not in tune with the "common ground" feel.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#248

Post by greendestiny »

nonrecursive wrote: post #101
greendestiny wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that I've ever read a really good account of the hows and whys of swearing. It seems to me the idea that we're mistaken that swear words are taboo completely misses the fact that we defined these words as taboo to start with. I think restricting children from swearing is in part to give more power to swear words, because as adults we find it useful to have these powerful words. Teaching children that swe…

check out Steven Pinker's "Why We Curse", http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=246c0071-a9cd-46e2...

Thanks!

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#249

Post by fancypants59 »

rsheridan6 wrote: post #188
astine wrote: post #22

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? The reason that parents don't want kids to swear is because they genuinely believe that it is wrong for some reason. The don't know the reason themselves, and so break the rule and become hypocrites, but they still believe that it is wrong and want their children to do better than they did. With regard to group identity (and religion,) most parents actually ad…

I teach my child not to swear because OTHER adults think there's something wrong with it. I truly don't give a fuck, but I don't want my son to be banned from his best friend's house because his mom heard him say "fuck."

My 12 year old's school allows swearing, and while it is curiously disturbing to hear a six year old swearing like a sailor while playing a video game, it is interesting to see what happens to the older kids as the novelty wears off. I allow my child to swear, but he respects which words I would rather not hear around the house, and I've never heard him swear when it was inappropriate. So, I teach my son how not to be banned.
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