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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

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181–190 of 294 posts

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't stand because it's not pragmatic. The issue around 'passwords being in your mind' is interesting, but they'll move past it. If you have evidence of a crime on your phone, it must be part of the process. There's nothing remotely unlawful about search of property so long as there is merit, oversight, warrant etc.. Ultimately, this will be no different than searching your car. Now, the cops doing it without a w…

The issue arises when the knowledge of the password itself is incriminating. The 5th amendment prohibits forced self incrimination. Forcing a suspect to divulge information that is directly incriminating will not stand constitutional review, regardless of the nature of the information. You have the right to remain silent.

If your password is “I killed him and the body is hidden under my deck” and that’s the literal crime you are being charged with, sure. But your password is usually not an admission of a crime, so that’s not the argument.

Even if your encrypted laptop contains evidence, you cannot plead the fifth if the prosecutors know it’s there. As long as they can get a warrant and when they get the data say “see your honor? Here is the evidence we knew was there!”, it doesn’t fall under the fifth.

Self incrimination would be if you are charged with tax fraud and proof is on your encrypted drive and the prosecution knows this, but also on that drive is records of money laundering, a separate crime they do not know about. This is when pleading the fifth would apply. By decrypting the laptop, you would incriminate yourself in a second crime, that you were not being charged with. Presumably if you were coerced into decrypting the laptop in this case, you could use the argument that the money laundering evidence can not be admitted into court because it was obtained inappropriately.

IANAL and this ain’t legal advice. Stay in school kids.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#182
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm arguing that the idea that anyone is allowed to connect anything to me while they ask me questions is perverse, reprehensible, and absurd .

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You can (and should) simply refuse to take any polygraphs. It will never work in your favor.

Also "no comment, lawyer please" is a good answer for any question.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement is permitted to do that only if they have a warrant. The question is whether they can compel you to give up a password (mostly no) or compel you to give up biometric key (unknown, but this court says no). And it is not just an extra step. Cracking an encryption is infeasible or extremely expensive when properly encrypted.

> Cracking an encryption is infeasible or extremely expensive when properly encrypted This depends highly on your threat model. What your local sheriff's office can do, versus the FBI, versus the NSA. Mall security Rent-A-Cops can peek through an unlocked phone, but probably aren't going to be doing any kind of cracking other than the obvious possibilities.

Well, they don't have to crack it on the spot, just clone it for later. Yes, your local sheriff's office or even police station won't likely have that tech, but a popular border check point could.

The question is whether they can legally do that without a warrant. And if this ruling stands, they'll basically be required to get the warrant if they want access to your device (unless you're naive enough to just hand it over unlocked).

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't stand because it's not pragmatic. The issue around 'passwords being in your mind' is interesting, but they'll move past it. If you have evidence of a crime on your phone, it must be part of the process. There's nothing remotely unlawful about search of property so long as there is merit, oversight, warrant etc.. Ultimately, this will be no different than searching your car. Now, the cops doing it without a w…

The problem with forcing someone to reveal a secret (e.g. a password), is that ultimately, there's no way to prove that someone actually knows the password. If I say that I forgot the password, and a judge throws me in jail for contempt of court, I could rot there forever. There is absolutely no way for me to ever prove that I truly forgot the password. You can't prove a negative. With fingerprints or face scanning,…

Will you consent to a brain scan then? Memories are physical. All secrets are.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#185
post #155
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, that's a unique case, because the authorities know the hashes of the cleartext files on his machine match the hashes of illicit media. "Foregone conclusion" so long as you believe in the mathematics behind hash collisions.

How can they possibly know that? If that is the case then there should be no problem convicting him.

They had access to the drive at one point.

In a filesharing seneario it is common for feds to see what you got before the raid that grabs the physical drive.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how the courts will differentiate between biometric data related to authentication and biometric data from blood tests, breathalyzers or DNA tests. The latter are, in a sense, examples of forcing you to divulge something stored in your body.

The UK fixed this for drink driving by making it an offence to refuse to submit to the alcohol tests. So they don't force you to implicate yourself for drink driving, you can choose instead to be prosecuted for refusing to provide a sample and have everybody assume (not at all unreasonably) that you refused because you knew you'd fail badly. Sometimes people are _so_ drunk they refuse to provide a sample without real…

This is basically how it works in the US too. You are punished for not submitting to the test by revocation of your license and also, the refusal to submit can be used against you to help establish you were DWI.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well out of convenience you kind of have to. But if you really wanted to you can just disable it at ports of entry.

> Well out of convenience you kind of have to. What a sentence.

If it weren’t for convenience I’d lock myself in the house and never go out either. A dangerous world lies outside.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't stand because it's not pragmatic. The issue around 'passwords being in your mind' is interesting, but they'll move past it. If you have evidence of a crime on your phone, it must be part of the process. There's nothing remotely unlawful about search of property so long as there is merit, oversight, warrant etc.. Ultimately, this will be no different than searching your car. Now, the cops doing it without a w…

The problem with forcing someone to reveal a secret (e.g. a password), is that ultimately, there's no way to prove that someone actually knows the password. If I say that I forgot the password, and a judge throws me in jail for contempt of court, I could rot there forever. There is absolutely no way for me to ever prove that I truly forgot the password. You can't prove a negative. With fingerprints or face scanning,…

> With fingerprints or face scanning, neither of these is an issue.

We treat biometrics like a secret (i.e. password), but really it's not much better than public information (i.e. username).

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with forcing someone to reveal a secret (e.g. a password), is that ultimately, there's no way to prove that someone actually knows the password. If I say that I forgot the password, and a judge throws me in jail for contempt of court, I could rot there forever. There is absolutely no way for me to ever prove that I truly forgot the password. You can't prove a negative. With fingerprints or face scanning,…

Will you consent to a brain scan then? Memories are physical. All secrets are.

X-ray scan?

:I

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a degenerate argument. an apartment is clearly yours. Without your password there is no way to conclusively prove that a phone is yours. SIM cards can be swapped, for example. The incriminating is not stating the password. it is the fact that you are proving the phone as yours.

Phone's have serial numbers tied to the hardware. It's certainly possible to prove that a given phone is the same physical unit that one purchased.

Which does not in any way prove that it is yours. Over my lifetime I purchased over 30 phones. Only two of them are currently mine. If you were to place another one I have purchased, but long ago sold in my possession, that would not be enough to prove that it is currently mine. if I happen to know the password, that might be very convincing.
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