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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

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Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#21

Post by vorpalhex »

krastanov wrote: post #7
porpoisely wrote: post #4

But can they seize your phone and crack it and look through your stuff without your permission or getting a warrant/judicial oversight? Otherwise, the only thing this does is add one extra step ( and additional cost which doesn't matter since taxpayers are footing the bill ) for the Feds to break into your phone.

Law enforcement is permitted to do that only if they have a warrant. The question is whether they can compel you to give up a password (mostly no) or compel you to give up biometric key (unknown, but this court says no). And it is not just an extra step. Cracking an encryption is infeasible or extremely expensive when properly encrypted.

> Cracking an encryption is infeasible or extremely expensive when properly encrypted

This depends highly on your threat model. What your local sheriff's office can do, versus the FBI, versus the NSA. Mall security Rent-A-Cops can peek through an unlocked phone, but probably aren't going to be doing any kind of cracking other than the obvious possibilities.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#22

Post by donaldknuth123 »

[deleted] wrote: post #11

[deleted]

I think the 5th amendment is pretty clear, you can't be compelled to testify against yourself. What does that have to do with false confessions?

If you make a statement in court that is used to convict you this is not a false confession but the law says you need not make that statement at all.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#23

Post by chooseaname »

derekp7 wrote: post #9
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…

I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court, but are still used by some government and private agencies. Also, just curious, have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct (i.e., flipping a coin)? Or is it that a high enough percentage of people will fail them even if innocent, or pass them even if guilty? The thing I don't like about t…

> I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court...

Only if you "pass". Fail one and admissible or not, it'll be brought up.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#24

Post by briandear »

laurentl wrote: post #19

Any idea if and how this ruling (if upheld) can be used to refuse phone seizures / password requests by CBP when entering the country? The ruling relies on the 5th amendment so its scope is limited to American citizens I guess. And whatever the rule of law it’s probably not a good idea to piss off a CBP agent... but still, it’d be nice to be able to travel to the US without having to wipe one’s phone and social media…

There is a Border Search Exception to the 4th Amendment established by the courts; this ruling has no relevance at at port of entry.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#25

Post by donaldknuth123 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #21
krastanov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement is permitted to do that only if they have a warrant. The question is whether they can compel you to give up a password (mostly no) or compel you to give up biometric key (unknown, but this court says no). And it is not just an extra step. Cracking an encryption is infeasible or extremely expensive when properly encrypted.

> Cracking an encryption is infeasible or extremely expensive when properly encrypted This depends highly on your threat model. What your local sheriff's office can do, versus the FBI, versus the NSA. Mall security Rent-A-Cops can peek through an unlocked phone, but probably aren't going to be doing any kind of cracking other than the obvious possibilities.

Well most people aren't drug kingpins or hackers that need to worry about the NSA showing up to crack their phone. Its also possible for the FBI to stake out your house and bug your home but that's also not something most people worry about.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#27

Post by disishhsha »

derekp7 wrote: post #9
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…

I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court, but are still used by some government and private agencies. Also, just curious, have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct (i.e., flipping a coin)? Or is it that a high enough percentage of people will fail them even if innocent, or pass them even if guilty? The thing I don't like about t…

The polygraph test is an interrogation technique. The examiner uses the reading to guide the questioning. I think taking a human out of that loop would be as difficult as a Turing test.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#28

Post by ataturk »

kevin_b_er wrote: post #2

I won't believe this ruling is safe until it goes thru higher levels. The Executive Branch has over the past 2 decades has shown a large propensity for attempts to disregard the 4th and 5th amendments, and I see no change in this posture or the attempts to subvert them with the current political climate.

Try 1-10, well maybe not 3, but don't give them any ideas.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#29

Post by nerflad »

This might be a good time to let others know: Android (at least my OnePlus) has a "Lockdown" mode in the shutdown menu that locks the screen and prevents the usage of the biometric methods. You have to use the password. This is good because passwords have already been hashed out in court and are unequivocally protected by the fifth amendment; you don't have to tell an officer your password (and entering it for them constitutes telling them).

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#30

Post by justadudeama »

laurentl wrote: post #19

Any idea if and how this ruling (if upheld) can be used to refuse phone seizures / password requests by CBP when entering the country? The ruling relies on the 5th amendment so its scope is limited to American citizens I guess. And whatever the rule of law it’s probably not a good idea to piss off a CBP agent... but still, it’d be nice to be able to travel to the US without having to wipe one’s phone and social media…

I highly doubt it, even for American citizens at the border. The "Border search exception" pretty much says that anywhere within 100 miles of a boarder, the fourth amendment doesn't apply[1]. I imagine they would make a similar rule for the fifth amendment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

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