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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

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Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#151

Post by dmitrygr »

umvi wrote: post #104
nerdponx wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they have a warrant? At that point I would argue that you are not self-incriminating. In my mind, it's like if the police had a warrant to search your apartment and you didn't let them in.

More like: Police: "We have a warrant for your apartment, let us in" Suspect: "Sorry, I lost the key when I went hiking in the Rocky Mountains, there's no way in. Oh, and be aware that if you try to force your way in more than 5 times, the apartment will catch fire and destroy everything inside" What would happen in this case? Can the suspect be held in contempt?

That is a degenerate argument. an apartment is clearly yours. Without your password there is no way to conclusively prove that a phone is yours. SIM cards can be swapped, for example. The incriminating is not stating the password. it is the fact that you are proving the phone as yours.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#152

Post by Dylan16807 »

dpark wrote: post #135
Nasrudith wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mugger can get into your device - less relevant now given that wallets are where the value is 99% of the time but given pay with phone options growing in popularity that might be a matter of concern eventually.

A guy with a gun in my face can have my PIN. I’ll also happily provide my fingerprint or look at my phone to unlock it. This idea that digital security is going to solve for physical violence is absurd unless you’re willing to die to protect your digital assets.

> unless you’re willing to die

I feel like that's getting the threat model wrong. The mugger wants to spend as little time with you as possible. If a fingerprint is needed to make purchases, then it can actually be significantly better than a PIN, and even a PIN is a lot better than nothing because they have to memorize it.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#153

Post by abalone »

Tip 1, which most people know: To quickly disable Face/TouchID you can squeeze left and right side buttons together (any combo) for two seconds to bring up the power off display.

Tip 2, which probably most people don't know: If you aren't holding the phone -- if someone shoves it in your face -- you can close your eyes to prevent FaceID from working and say "Hey Siri, who's phone is this?"

Not that it's wise to do this to frustrate a violent attacker, but it might work for some situations.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#154

Post by 77pt77 »

spaceribs wrote: post #109
Joky wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a second factor for TFA?

I have a simple test for if I should use biometrics for something: Replace every instance of "New Biometric Tech" with "Social Security Number".

So it will become ubiquitous.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#155

Post by 77pt77 »

b1r6 wrote: post #146
killaken2000 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Francis Rawls is still in jail after 2 years for not decrypting his hard drive. He's in contempt indefinitely until he decrypts the drive.

However, that's a unique case, because the authorities know the hashes of the cleartext files on his machine match the hashes of illicit media. "Foregone conclusion" so long as you believe in the mathematics behind hash collisions.

How can they possibly know that?

If that is the case then there should be no problem convicting him.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#156

Post by Dylan16807 »

samatman wrote: post #105
mjevans wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the DNA tests we use today, assuming even perfect cases with zero contamination or mistakes (whole other argument there), is that (in my non-expert understanding): * Taking the samples and using several solutions to snip them at given patterns. * Taking another solution and promoting replication of the fragments. * Using some dye and a weight sorting channel to bin the fragments by weight. This resul…

You’ve described electrophoresis DNA fingerprinting correctly, then jumped to the unjustified conclusion that it’s a VERY crude hash. Not so, it’s a fairly excellent hash, one with few collisions. Better than a fingerprint. If it looks like your DNA, it most likely is. Source: was an electrophoresis tech (not forensic) in a previous life. And yes, the usual genetics sites do SNP tests, which are cheaper than full seq…

Better than a fingerprint is still not great!

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#157

Post by samatman »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #156
samatman wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve described electrophoresis DNA fingerprinting correctly, then jumped to the unjustified conclusion that it’s a VERY crude hash. Not so, it’s a fairly excellent hash, one with few collisions. Better than a fingerprint. If it looks like your DNA, it most likely is. Source: was an electrophoresis tech (not forensic) in a previous life. And yes, the usual genetics sites do SNP tests, which are cheaper than full seq…

Better than a fingerprint is still not great!

Well, several decimal orders of magnitude better than a fingerprint, to be accurate.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#158

Post by CamperBob2 »

jonahhorowitz wrote: post #123
Scoundreller wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is easy enough to do on iOS: Hit the sleep/wake button 5 times quickly.

Careful - after iOS 12 that defaults to calling 911 for you (while also locking your device). You can change that in the settings though.

Correct, I just did this yesterday while idly fidgeting around with my phone. Fortunately I cancelled it in time to avoid creating a false alarm. Glad to hear it can be turned off, doing that now. WTF were they thinking, making it so easy to trigger by accident?

(Edit: OK, I'm confused. There doesn't seem to be an option to disable the emergency trigger entirely, but there's an "Auto Call" slider whose relationship to the feature is unclear. This slider is turned off, yet the phone still went into emergency mode when I clicked the button a few times. What a half-assed feature, sadly typical of Apple's work lately.)

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#160

Post by URSpider94 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #158
jonahhorowitz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful - after iOS 12 that defaults to calling 911 for you (while also locking your device). You can change that in the settings though.

Correct, I just did this yesterday while idly fidgeting around with my phone. Fortunately I cancelled it in time to avoid creating a false alarm. Glad to hear it can be turned off, doing that now. WTF were they thinking, making it so easy to trigger by accident? (Edit: OK, I'm confused. There doesn't seem to be an option to disable the emergency trigger entirely, but there's an "Auto Call" slider whose relationship t…

They made it easy to trigger so that people can use it as a panic button. That was a customer request.
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