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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

forbes.com

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Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#131

Post by wahern »

darkpuma wrote: post #99
zik wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct? Yes. The reading of polygraphs is very subjective and it's been found that they reflect only whether the person administering the test thinks the subject is guilty.

They also reflect whether or not the subject of the test believes the test works. In practice polygraphs are used as a form of psychological torture, used to frighten people into giving confessions. Of course whether a polygraph can frighten an innocent person enough to falsely confess is another matter, but if the subject is guilty and understands how polygraphs (don't) work, they can deceive the person administerin…

Obligatory scene from The Wire: https://youtu.be/AJ5aIvjNgao?t=115

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#132

Post by basil-rash »

miles wrote: post #56
gph1234 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pressing power button 5 times in quick succession" doesn't work on my iPhone 8 Plus running iOS 12. To achieve the same effect, I need to hold the power button and one of the volume buttons for a couple of seconds.

Sorry - looks like the power button x5 trick only works on iPhone 7 and earlier (had tested successfully on a 6S before posting): https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076

On later phones its power and volume simultaneously.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#133

Post by killaken2000 »

richardthered wrote: post #79
sonnyblarney wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't stand because it's not pragmatic. The issue around 'passwords being in your mind' is interesting, but they'll move past it. If you have evidence of a crime on your phone, it must be part of the process. There's nothing remotely unlawful about search of property so long as there is merit, oversight, warrant etc.. Ultimately, this will be no different than searching your car. Now, the cops doing it without a w…

The problem with forcing someone to reveal a secret (e.g. a password), is that ultimately, there's no way to prove that someone actually knows the password. If I say that I forgot the password, and a judge throws me in jail for contempt of court, I could rot there forever. There is absolutely no way for me to ever prove that I truly forgot the password. You can't prove a negative. With fingerprints or face scanning,…

Francis Rawls is still in jail after 2 years for not decrypting his hard drive. He's in contempt indefinitely until he decrypts the drive.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#134

Post by basil-rash »

mamon wrote: post #93
Zak wrote: post #62

> Stick to a strong alphanumeric passcode that you won’t be compelled to disclose. I can imagine this having value against criminals as well. The number of people willing to beat a password out of a victim is smaller than the number of people willing to hold a victim up against the wall for a second to press their finger to a reader.

Except criminals that could beat you up on a street are not interested in your data, they just want to sell the hardware and have money for drugs. It's easier for them to just type wrong passcode 10 times and have the phone wipe its whole content.

Does the wipe put it back into factory default mode? It was my understanding that it would put it into a "locked to X user" mode, requiring an iCloud password to reactivate.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#135

Post by dpark »

Nasrudith wrote: post #130
parent5446 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have attackers going after them who are harvesting fingerprints to get into their devices.

A mugger can get into your device - less relevant now given that wallets are where the value is 99% of the time but given pay with phone options growing in popularity that might be a matter of concern eventually.

A guy with a gun in my face can have my PIN. I’ll also happily provide my fingerprint or look at my phone to unlock it.

This idea that digital security is going to solve for physical violence is absurd unless you’re willing to die to protect your digital assets.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#136

Post by Nasrudith »

darkpuma wrote: post #96
sathackr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue arises when the knowledge of the password itself is incriminating. The 5th amendment prohibits forced self incrimination. Forcing a suspect to divulge information that is directly incriminating will not stand constitutional review, regardless of the nature of the information. You have the right to remain silent.

Mugshot photographs are constitutional, no? Suppose the face biometrics were poorly implemented, such that holding a printout of the mugshot were sufficient to defeat the facial recognition. Would doing that violate the 5th amendment? What if the face biometrics are better than that, but they can still be defeated by a very carefully constructed 3d model of the suspects head, created from data taken from numerous mug…

The issue is more related to the intent of the action regardless of the practicalities of it. Essentially the subjecting giving a password is giving their consent to the device to unlock it. Using their iris or facial pattern as something compelled in that context would be distinct from the gunshot residue or blood of a victim which also incriminates them since that is something about them as opposed to being compelled to testify against themselves.

It is admittedly a weaker argument from a pure physical standpoint but the law doesn't operate based upon that anyway. Any judge would throw out a request in discovery for the defendant to produce a recording confessing their guilt even for legitimate comparative purposes and many other requests or demands that would be unduly prejudicial for 5th amendment reasons.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#137

Post by [deleted] »

Nasrudith wrote: post #130
parent5446 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have attackers going after them who are harvesting fingerprints to get into their devices.

A mugger can get into your device - less relevant now given that wallets are where the value is 99% of the time but given pay with phone options growing in popularity that might be a matter of concern eventually.

[deleted]

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#138

Post by someone7x »

killaken2000 wrote: post #133
richardthered wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with forcing someone to reveal a secret (e.g. a password), is that ultimately, there's no way to prove that someone actually knows the password. If I say that I forgot the password, and a judge throws me in jail for contempt of court, I could rot there forever. There is absolutely no way for me to ever prove that I truly forgot the password. You can't prove a negative. With fingerprints or face scanning,…

Francis Rawls is still in jail after 2 years for not decrypting his hard drive. He's in contempt indefinitely until he decrypts the drive.

Reminds of that guy in The Crucible that gets crushed with rocks for refusing to take part in the witch trial.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#139

Post by gbaygon »

dpark wrote: post #135
Nasrudith wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mugger can get into your device - less relevant now given that wallets are where the value is 99% of the time but given pay with phone options growing in popularity that might be a matter of concern eventually.

A guy with a gun in my face can have my PIN. I’ll also happily provide my fingerprint or look at my phone to unlock it. This idea that digital security is going to solve for physical violence is absurd unless you’re willing to die to protect your digital assets.

obligatory https://xkcd.com/538/

edit: - sorry if it's annoying but for me it was a very graphical way to always remember this issue.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#140

Post by darkpuma »

Nasrudith wrote: post #136
darkpuma wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mugshot photographs are constitutional, no? Suppose the face biometrics were poorly implemented, such that holding a printout of the mugshot were sufficient to defeat the facial recognition. Would doing that violate the 5th amendment? What if the face biometrics are better than that, but they can still be defeated by a very carefully constructed 3d model of the suspects head, created from data taken from numerous mug…

The issue is more related to the intent of the action regardless of the practicalities of it. Essentially the subjecting giving a password is giving their consent to the device to unlock it. Using their iris or facial pattern as something compelled in that context would be distinct from the gunshot residue or blood of a victim which also incriminates them since that is something about them as opposed to being compell…

I'm just not seeing a meaningful distinction between forcibly taking their fingerprint ("something about them") to check against prints found on a gun and forcibly taking their fingerprint ("something about them") to check a smartphone found on the scene.

If they have a warrant to check the phone, and if taking fingerprints of the arrested without consent has already been found constitutional, I just don't see a problem.

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