The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction • Hacker News Board

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#191

Post by jandrese » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 8:17 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #100

stone-monkey wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second is my favorite by far as well, but I find it funny how it's described as amazing Sci-Fi when I have to describe the plot. Half the book is spoilers The result of granting a nerd all the resources of the Earth at his disposal. He promptly uses it to find the perfect waifu and seduces her in his idyllic European villa. That's not Sci-Fi; That's a power fantasy as old as time.

May reflect on how different people read things differently. I agree that a lot of pages are spent on what you've just described, but to me it was a weird and minor plot point, and I never mention it because I don't see how it's worth mentioning. The game-theoretic aspects of the book, on the other hand, and the final comeback of aforementioned nerd, are something I like to point out when summarizing this book.

The game theory parts of the book made me pretty annoyed personally. He's oversimplifying a problem, ignoring obvious compounding factors, and then proclaiming that it's the only possible solution and everybody else must have made the same flawed assumptions and be operating under the same principles.

And then of course everybody does operate under those principles and feel compelled to act irrationally as a result.

Because resources are limited the only solution is to blow up almost all of the resources to make sure nobody else gets them. The idea that there might be natural limits (even basic thermodynamic ones) to growth apparently never occurs to the author. It's kind of shocking how casual some unnamed alien species is about literally destroying the universe.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#192

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

stevenhuang wrote: post #134

int_19h wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd disagree that the science was good, even for a pop audience. It reads very much like somebody got a bunch of random "cool" scientific concepts, and then proceeded to treat them as deus ex machina devices without much understanding of the underlying physics. Just to give one example, at one point the first book features an integrated circuit somehow "etched" on the surface of a stretched-out elementary particle .…

If that's what you think then you seem to have a very narrow view of what constitutes hard scifi. For example, the stretching as a recall is from the part about the elementary particles being folded into higher dimensions. Either you've dismissed that as fantasy or it seems your take on "hard" scifi is wholly unimaginative.

My take on hard sci-fi is that it must either use science and technology that we already understand, in ways conforming to that understanding, or - if it presents new technology that is posited as something beyond our understanding - it must be consistent, including other "magic" as well as interactions with things we do know. Some examples of what I would consider hard sci-fi: "Tau Zero", "Tales of Pirx the Pilot", "2001", "Seveneves", the Mars trilogy.

All of these components are lacking in the book, and it's not just the particles. It reads very much like someone subscribed to some popular science journal for a few years, and then just dumped every idea that sounded interesting into a book without much understanding of what it is about.

To give another example, the author references string theory - great! - but then he has a one-dimensional string - that makes up an elementary particle - break apart into "pieces" from gravity.

Or take alien propulsion. It supposedly works by collecting antimatter from space - but where in space is there enough antimatter to collect like that, and why hasn't it annihilated from interaction with the much more prevalent hydrogen? The interesting thing about this example is that it's not insurmountable - hard sci-fi could explain it away in some convincingly sounding way - but the book doesn't even bother to, it's just presented as fact, without even pointing out the contradictions.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#193

Post by jandrese » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 8:26 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #94

demilicious wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely disagree. The science was pretty good, for a pop audience, but there was zero character development - beyond Luo Ji, zero characters develop in the _entire series_. I don't want to spoil anything, of course, but you can pretty much decide the rest of the series based on what I've already written. Extremely disappointing.

I'd disagree that the science was good, even for a pop audience. It reads very much like somebody got a bunch of random "cool" scientific concepts, and then proceeded to treat them as deus ex machina devices without much understanding of the underlying physics. Just to give one example, at one point the first book features an integrated circuit somehow "etched" on the surface of a stretched-out elementary particle .…

The sophons were basically deus ex machina particles for whatever the author needed them to do. They were omnipotent, undetectable, able to be everywhere at once, had unlimited energy, and apparently are no good at all for scouting out other uninhabited solar systems to colonize (so they don't have the Dark Forest problem with Earth during their journey).

If the Trisolarians had sent them out in various directions to scout out solar systems they could have avoided so many headaches.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#194

Post by jandrese » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #107

Hasknewbie wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the first book in that trilogy, and it struck me how much it was a product of the Hu Jintao era. Under the presidency of Xi Jinping this book would have never been allowed. Way too snarky about the Cultural Revolution (I mean, in it there's a university professor that gets literally lynched by 'revolutionary' students because he refuses to parrot some party line. And that's just chapter one), and the Xi admini…

One interesting thing: The English translation starts with the cultural revolution bit, but the original book has it in the middle. The author said that he actually intended to start with this part to put things in a context but ultimately moved it around in order to not stir things up. There is also a movie that has finished filming but is in post production hell. Allegedly because of money issues but who knows.

I'd worry about about how the books translate to film. A lot of what makes the books interesting is the sort of game-theory parts that are going to be confusing and boring on the big screen.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#195

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #170

ethbro wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not dismissive to call it fantasy. Do we have any scientific evidence that any of higher-dimensional antics in 3BP are possible? If not, then the author is making up his own world building rules (completely acceptable). But that makes the story more akin to scientific fantasy than hard scientific fiction. And unless the English translation excised a LOT of technical details, there are some huge leaps of scientif…

There's a rule I remember, that in hard-ish sci-fi, the author gets to invent one unrealistic thing. I wouldn't put Cixin Liu's trilogy as hard hard sci-fi, as it invents a few more, but all in all, there aren't that many "fantasy devices" there. It definitely has a flavour of hardness.

They get to invent as many "impossible" things as they want, really. But they all need to have plausible-sounding explanations (given our current level of scientific understanding), and they need to act in a consistent, predictable manner, including consistency with known laws of nature - e.g. if you have antigravity, the default assumption is that it obeys the inverse square power law, and if it doesn't, that needs to be called out and have some explanation of its own.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#196

Post by int_19h » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 8:32 PM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #146

int_19h wrote: post #92

I have only read "Three-Body Problem", and I found it to be atrocious writing on pretty much all levels. Language-wise, it was more cliched and wooden than many fanfics I've read. Character development is non-existent, and most of the characters are very shallow and only exist to advance the plot. The plot itself, aside from the basic idea of a three-body system with life, was also very boring - the only part of it t…

There are more axes than character development or adherence to the constraints of current scientific understanding on which to judge a book. To me, originality and "philosophical development", or how the perspective of science influences the future and nature of humanity are very important, and that's why I consider this series an absolute masterpiece. It's great in the same vein as 2001: a space odyssey, or rendezvo…

I didn't see anything particularly original in the first book. Maybe it shows up later.

The other axis is quality of writing - i.e. how easy it is to read and understand, and how aesthetically pleasing the writing is. On that axis, I would also rank it very low.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#197

Post by ctchocula » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #178

tanilama wrote: post #110

Three body problem does suffer the problem of weak characterization. Liu's account of his characters are often robotic and functional, in a way that is pretty anti-climatic, since you hardly feel for those characters and their fate. They are disposable vehicles with string attached, who don't control their own fate or make their own decisions but simply carry out appointed missions from the author himself. Granted, h…

So basically your saying: don’t read the novels but instead read the Wikipedia articles if you’re interested in crazy SF ideas?

I think he's saying the ideas are good, but characterization sucks. I might compare it to Asimov: one would never read Asimov for the characters or the psychological insight (like one would read Tolstoy), but one reads Asimov for the plot and the ideas. It's not for everyone, but you would need to read the book to see if it's for you. To say just read the Wikipedia articles would be unjust.

My advice: read it if you liked Asimov or learning about Chinese culture. For example, another commenter pointed out one theme in this trilogy is "The most powerful human trait is the ability to hide ones true feelings and thoughts from others". This is a markedly Chinese trait that it was noted by a missionary who visited China in the 19th century and wrote a book called "Chinese Characteristics".

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#198

Post by ethbro » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 11:59 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #195

TeMPOraL wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a rule I remember, that in hard-ish sci-fi, the author gets to invent one unrealistic thing. I wouldn't put Cixin Liu's trilogy as hard hard sci-fi, as it invents a few more, but all in all, there aren't that many "fantasy devices" there. It definitely has a flavour of hardness.

They get to invent as many "impossible" things as they want, really. But they all need to have plausible-sounding explanations (given our current level of scientific understanding), and they need to act in a consistent, predictable manner, including consistency with known laws of nature - e.g. if you have antigravity, the default assumption is that it obeys the inverse square power law, and if it doesn't, that needs…

I'd hew closer to TeMPOraL's definition.

On the one hand, one obviously needs some technological leeway to write a fun novel set in the future.

On the other, if every roadblock is responded to by suspending scientific treatment, it doesn't seem like that's a good faith "hard" effort.

I think Ringworld is instructive. The Wikipedia article specifically calls out technical inaccuracies in the original... inaccuracies Niven specifically made an effort to patch up in later books.

So the count of intentional lapses seems as decent a proxy for hardness as anything else.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#199

Post by spullara » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 1:36 AM UTC

uxcolumbo wrote: post #148

spullara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the trilogy isn't that great as literature. It feels like an amalgam of all the cool ideas the author ever had forced into a narrative. The individual ideas are really interesting and cool but there is little to no character development and the plot can be silly at times. I don't think it is the worst science fiction I have read but to me it doesn't hold together as a story.

Which ones would you recommend instead? I'm looking for new book suggestions.

I'd say that the author that is the most similar but with what I think are better stories would be Larry Niven (Ringworld).

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#200

Post by thatcherc » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 2:16 AM UTC

infinii wrote: post #108

mark_l_watson wrote: post #60

I really enjoyed Liu Cixin‘s Three Body Problem trilogy when I read it last year. Really creative and interesting. I also just finished his prequel to the trilogy Ball Lightening.

Would you recommend reading Ball Lightning before the TBP Trilogy if I've never read any of this...because it's a prequel?

I don't think it's a prequel - he just wrote it before TBP. There is one character in common with The Dark Forest, but only to the extent that this character is regarded as a great physicist in both books and makes some discoveries.