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The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

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Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#151

Post by krapp »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #147
blackrock wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on what you want out of it. In western sci-fi, the story exists to make the reader feel good about themselves. At least, the successful ones are like this. It makes for good movies, and good story telling. Think about that for a moment. All the western sci-fi that we've been used to: Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc.. All these stories are not really science fiction, but rather, scie…

> All these stories are not really science fiction, but rather, science fantasy. How do you define science fantasy? I would agree Star Wars is fantasy, but I don't think Star Trek (pre Discovery) can be classed as fantasy. For example, a few of their concepts are now real, e.g. they envisioned tablets back in the 60s, now we have iPads etc. More is explored here: https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/star_t…

There is no objective definition for a line between "science fiction" and "science fantasy," but I've come to view Star Trek as no less science fantasy than Star Wars. Replicators and transporters violate physical laws to such a degree that they might as well be magic. The way the universe and tech are described (subspace, particles of the week, negative space wedgies, etc.) have little to do with the actual universe, or the way space and time actually behave. Beings with arbitrary, if not omnipotent, reality-warping powers like the Q, Trelane and Douwd exist, which are basically space gods.

I mean, there is little real difference between "the Force did it," the Q did it" and "a wizard did it."

That the show also happened to have imagined portable computers and other technological innovations ... makes it science fantasy, rather than fantasy outright. But more to the point, what makes Star Trek more science fantasy than fiction is that it isn't about science, or extrapolating a plausible future, but simply using a futuristic setting as a backdrop for drama, without regard for actual scientific plausibility.

I'm not mocking Star Trek, I love the franchise and the original series, for what it was, was the first attempt at describing a persistent futuristic setting on television that I'm aware of (also, it was the series with the least technobabble and "teching the tech" which always helps.) That also (to me) makes it the most "science fictional" of the series, maybe the only one that counts as science fiction. YMMV.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#152

Post by idoubtit »

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #139
jayalpha wrote: post #93

Long overdue. When South Korea and Japan have super interesting Sci-Fi books and movies (e.g. Korean Bladerunner "Natural City"), why not China? I am glad China is coming along. Since I learn Mandarin, feel free to recommend Chinese movies. (I am trying to read 三体 already, don't need more books). I start with the first (non-scifi) movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Breaker_(film) Please recommend more Chinese…

Wong Kar-Wai is a Chinese director I like a lot.

Wong Kar-Wai grew and made his main films in Hong-Kong, which was not part of China (AKA People's Republic of China). I believe most of his actors spoke Cantonese, not Mandarin. Since these languages are mutually unintelligible, it's of little use to the OP which was learning the latter.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#153

Post by gameswithgo »

mercutio2 wrote: post #41
Jerry2 wrote: post #34

Cixin Liu's 'Remembrance of Earth’s Past' trilogy are the greatest sci-fi books I've ever read. I still remember when I picked the first volume and than patiently waited for a very long time for translations of the next books to arrive. The wait was well worth it. He manages to put his characters into seemingly insurmountable situations and it feels like he won't be able to write his way out of them but somehow he ma…

Wow. I couldn’t stand the first book of this series. Interminable, I never built any empathy for any of the characters. I’ve been told it gets better after the first book, but why would I subject myself to another book after my experience of the first? Anyway, to each their own, but as a huge sci-fi fan, I generally love the Hugo winners and nominees. The Chinese sci-fi that’s been nominated has all left me cold.

this is fascinating, as I loved the first book and hated the 2nd.

I felt the translator of the first book was better by a lot.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#154

Post by ethbro »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #100
stone-monkey wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second is my favorite by far as well, but I find it funny how it's described as amazing Sci-Fi when I have to describe the plot. Half the book is spoilers The result of granting a nerd all the resources of the Earth at his disposal. He promptly uses it to find the perfect waifu and seduces her in his idyllic European villa. That's not Sci-Fi; That's a power fantasy as old as time.

May reflect on how different people read things differently. I agree that a lot of pages are spent on what you've just described, but to me it was a weird and minor plot point, and I never mention it because I don't see how it's worth mentioning. The game-theoretic aspects of the book, on the other hand, and the final comeback of aforementioned nerd, are something I like to point out when summarizing this book.

I enjoyed that part, but he could have done it in a 20 page short story.

I'm not sure if Liu Cixin is emblematic of Chinese science fiction, but the services of a more aggressive editor seem to be missing. Imho, it would have vastly improved the series, and possibly cut it down to a single volume.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#155

Post by ethbro »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #101
chii wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> characters' decision making processes and the ways things were described felt very foreign to me. the book isn't a dramatic book - it doesn't follow a hero's journey or the typical greek style storytelling trope. It's more like a description of what happened. But i like that - the sci-fi elements described a pretty fantastical, concepts are fresh and original (however you can argue that it has been done before?!).…

> I feel that the book is bifurcated amongst readers who read for literary quality vs conceptual quality. Yup. I'm strongly in the latter camp (as I'm fond of saying, if I wanted to read character development , I'd pick up literally any other genre - everything nowadays is about people and their emotional dramas; I like my sci-fi when it's about ideas). The whole Trilogy is pretty dense in concepts, including some in…

Curious, have you read Asimov? Specifically Foundation?

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#156

Post by ethbro »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #102
dmix wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is quite remarkable the breadth of the ideas that were explored. For example?

A solid, game-theoretic explanation for the Fermi paradox based on assumptions of no FTL and technological growth being sudden and rapid, both seemingly applicable to our universe.

I couldn't help but read that with historical-political overtones, which in light of 19th century Chinese history and the modern CCP seemed terrifying.

I also took issue with the implicit assumption that two civilizations cooperating would develop no faster than a single civilization. Or, another way, that all civilizations would climb the same technology ladder the same way.

On Earth, historical competition between nation-states has suggested a very different reality.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#157

Post by aedron »

infinii wrote: post #108
mark_l_watson wrote: post #60

I really enjoyed Liu Cixin‘s Three Body Problem trilogy when I read it last year. Really creative and interesting. I also just finished his prequel to the trilogy Ball Lightening.

Would you recommend reading Ball Lightning before the TBP Trilogy if I've never read any of this...because it's a prequel?

I've read (and thoroughly enjoyed) them all, didn't even know Ball Lightning was a prequel (it was written after the trilogy). Perhaps some repeat characters?

I don't believe there are any spoilers either way.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#158

Post by ethbro »

stevenhuang wrote: post #134
int_19h wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd disagree that the science was good, even for a pop audience. It reads very much like somebody got a bunch of random "cool" scientific concepts, and then proceeded to treat them as deus ex machina devices without much understanding of the underlying physics. Just to give one example, at one point the first book features an integrated circuit somehow "etched" on the surface of a stretched-out elementary particle .…

If that's what you think then you seem to have a very narrow view of what constitutes hard scifi. For example, the stretching as a recall is from the part about the elementary particles being folded into higher dimensions. Either you've dismissed that as fantasy or it seems your take on "hard" scifi is wholly unimaginative.

It's not dismissive to call it fantasy.

Do we have any scientific evidence that any of higher-dimensional antics in 3BP are possible?

If not, then the author is making up his own world building rules (completely acceptable). But that makes the story more akin to scientific fantasy than hard scientific fiction.

And unless the English translation excised a LOT of technical details, there are some huge leaps of scientific faith in 3BP.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#159

Post by uxcolumbo »

krapp wrote: post #151
uxcolumbo wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All these stories are not really science fiction, but rather, science fantasy. How do you define science fantasy? I would agree Star Wars is fantasy, but I don't think Star Trek (pre Discovery) can be classed as fantasy. For example, a few of their concepts are now real, e.g. they envisioned tablets back in the 60s, now we have iPads etc. More is explored here: https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/star_t…

There is no objective definition for a line between "science fiction" and "science fantasy," but I've come to view Star Trek as no less science fantasy than Star Wars. Replicators and transporters violate physical laws to such a degree that they might as well be magic. The way the universe and tech are described (subspace, particles of the week, negative space wedgies, etc.) have little to do with the actual universe…

Fair point. Totally forgot about Q (assuming we're not in a simulation, the feats that Q pulled off are most probably not realistic in the real world.)

As with most things, I think it's probably more on a spectrum. I probably should have said that Star Trek leans more towards science fiction than Star Wars - so yes - I agree with your points.

Another one that's more 'science fictional' is the Expanse - worth checking out if you haven't yet.

Re: The Rise and Rise of Chinese Science Fiction

#160

Post by da_chicken »

mercutio2 wrote: post #41
Jerry2 wrote: post #34

Cixin Liu's 'Remembrance of Earth’s Past' trilogy are the greatest sci-fi books I've ever read. I still remember when I picked the first volume and than patiently waited for a very long time for translations of the next books to arrive. The wait was well worth it. He manages to put his characters into seemingly insurmountable situations and it feels like he won't be able to write his way out of them but somehow he ma…

Wow. I couldn’t stand the first book of this series. Interminable, I never built any empathy for any of the characters. I’ve been told it gets better after the first book, but why would I subject myself to another book after my experience of the first? Anyway, to each their own, but as a huge sci-fi fan, I generally love the Hugo winners and nominees. The Chinese sci-fi that’s been nominated has all left me cold.

> I couldn’t stand the first book of this series. Interminable, I never built any empathy for any of the characters.

I didn't entirely have this problem (though it was more difficult), but I had a problem with some of the plot points. Namely, (minor spoiler) scientists killing themselves when science did something they couldn't explain. I just couldn't buy that people who dedicate their lives to discovery would do that. I mean, the double slit experiment didn't cause such problems. It was just too unbelievable to me.

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