Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#41

Post by maxander » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

perlmutterlabs wrote: post #38

zzzcpan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a fatal flaw, unless they choose a location with police surveillance, but why would they?

Taking a guess: ML is just too good. Don't forget, it's also a signal to leave surveillance areas, eg "last seen driving into the desert". Any kind of outlier behavior is PART of the detection model ... that's where probabilistic models gain leverage, in fact ...

I think if “he left surveilled areas for no registered reason” is something that law enforcement observes and considers evidence of criminal activity, we’ll have well and truly lost any semblance of being a free society.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#42

Post by anon_cow1111 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:29 AM UTC

jorblumesea wrote: post #16

The biggest flaw here is the dead drop system. It doesn't scale well and involves many more complex steps and people in the system. For example, a drone on surveillance duty that continuously watches the area will be able to identify patterns and pick out possible outliers. Combined that video feed with machine learning and it may be possible actively identify dead drop participants.

If the system becomes that large and profitable, those surveillance drones are going to end up mounted on plaques like big game trophies.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#43

Post by perlmutterlabs » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:30 AM UTC

maxander wrote: post #41

perlmutterlabs wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a guess: ML is just too good. Don't forget, it's also a signal to leave surveillance areas, eg "last seen driving into the desert". Any kind of outlier behavior is PART of the detection model ... that's where probabilistic models gain leverage, in fact ...

I think if “he left surveilled areas for no registered reason” is something that law enforcement observes and considers evidence of criminal activity, we’ll have well and truly lost any semblance of being a free society.

"Parallel Construction" ... yep, sad times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#44

Post by mindslight » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:39 AM UTC

monotone666 wrote: post #37

Dead drops can’t compete with USPS. They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. Millions of people use dark net marketplaces. The war on drugs has fueled their growth and more serious crimes like identity theft have benefited from it.

Criminal networks do benefit from a bread-and-butter businesses like drug distribution. These innovations likely wouldn't be taking place at all if altering one's own consciousness with substances hadn't been criminalized - when the law is made to be at odds with society, society adapts to being at odds with the law.

But unlike say murder, "identity theft" isn't some serious crime - it's in the same basket as "war on drugs" in that they both attempt to fortify a nonsensical top-down design at odds with the underlying reality. It's arbitrage against a broken authorization paradigm, and will continue as long as banks (et al) choose to just bear the cost rather than actually fix their systems.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#45

Post by tribby » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

monotone666 wrote: post #37

Dead drops can’t compete with USPS. They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. Millions of people use dark net marketplaces. The war on drugs has fueled their growth and more serious crimes like identity theft have benefited from it.

> All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine.

well, that's what the end user sees, but we can't pretend to know what happens behind the scenes from a data perspective, and how that data might be used in the future.

> They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession.

this is not true. only first-class mail (13oz and under) is subject to any fourth amendment protections at all,[1] and your mail can be opened without warrant if it comes from overseas.[2] USPS can also x-ray and use other imaging techniques on whatever they want, they even describe it as a best practice.[3]

this isn't to say dead drops are a better idea; there are plenty of reasons not to go that route as well.

1. https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/faq.aspx

2. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/114

3. https://about.usps.com/securing-the-mail/best-practices.htm

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#46

Post by austhrow743 » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #24

agumonkey wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if the darkweb resolves the drug on war issue .. that will be something

Unlikely. It just decentralizes distribution and dealing - bulk darkweb drugs still end up in the hands of street resellers.

At the moment that's how it works. If it's true that things are moving in to telegram and other encrypted chat platforms then it could change. It makes it simple enough for the average person to do.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#47

Post by hiccuphippo » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

omeid2 wrote: post #39

monotone666 wrote: post #37

Dead drops can’t compete with USPS. They require a court order to open your package and even then can’t charge anyone with possession. All they do is send you a “love letter” and people have reported receiving future packages just fine. Millions of people use dark net marketplaces. The war on drugs has fueled their growth and more serious crimes like identity theft have benefited from it.

The war on drug has to be one of the top contributors and financiers of crime and criminal gangs. Imagine a world where criminal gangs don't have access to the money they make through drugs and a government that doesn't have to spend huge amount of money on drug laws enforcement because drug trafficking would be much less lucrative in the existence of legal access and you get fewer and very cash-strapped drug gangs,…

It can't help with getting voters though. At least until new voters come around and old voters get phased out.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#48

Post by sigmaprimus » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

My biggest problem with using the Darknet, messaging apps, or old school methods such as dial a dope or hitting up the guy on the street corner to buy drugs is the same. How can I really trust someone willing to break the rules and sell drugs or other non legal goods? You lay down with dogs you get fleas!! Last thing I would want is to eat, smoke or snort something from someone I have never met even if they have a 5 star rating on a darknet review board. Don't even get me started on messaging out to someone whos' contact info is written out next to a pay phone or on a bathroom wall and the likes!

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#49

Post by mirimir » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

It's cool to see serious tradecraft applied to this stuff. Especially compartmentalization.

And yes, using traditional shipping systems is a serious problem for old-school dark markets. I've thought off and on for several years about the potential for using dead drops with accurate GPS. I mean, geocaching. Many years ago, when I was dealing LSD, it was pretty common to use dead drops. But then, they were typically rental lockers in bus and train stations.

I agree that ubiquitous surveillance is a problem. However, it's ~clueless customers and low-level distributors who'll most likely get pwned. And they won't know anything important about the operation overall.

Anyway, time will tell.

Re: Dropgangs, or the future of darknet markets

#50

Post by panarky » Mon, Jan 14, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

Anonymous, decentralized transactions using dead drops only works with side-channels for reputation, or with security deposits.

Side-channels for reputation like posting cryptographic proof on darknet forums isn't scalable or reliable.

And security deposits without a third-party adjudicator just move the trust issue around without eliminating it.

One ideal solution could be a cryptocurrency with on-chain confirmation of the real-world transaction by both parties after the fact.

When both parties to the transaction can point to a series of successful transactions through a web of trust, then the central marketplace for reputation or escrow is no longer needed.