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Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

ruben.verborgh.org

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Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#151
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the fact that most people would look unfavorably on yet another box in their homes, how does any of this help you avoid the blocking and tracking of the ISP? Your ISP will still know what you are doing, and will have the ability to block you from doing it should the need arise. I also feel like people are proposing solutions based on technologies as they stand today. Chosen solutions to the decentraliza…

> Setting aside the fact that most people would look unfavorably on yet another box in their homes, how does any of this help you avoid the blocking and tracking of the ISP? Meh, don't need another box, just keep the family desktop on. But even without that, there is still value. The ISP tracking isn't much of an issue using an existing network like Tor. Software starts up, reads the locally encrypted Sqlite DB for y…

> Meh, don't need another box, just keep the family desktop on.

Doesn't exist anymore (often enough).

> Just user-oriented effort instead of the constant barrage of difficult-to-setup tech demos.

Things like identity management and data storage make these barriers pretty deep. “I can delete my post and it basically won't be accessible anymore” (there can be physical exceptions so long as they're legibly exceptions to the social reality), “I don't have to think about how big my images are and can just post as much as I want”, “I can lose any of my own hardware and everything will still be there because it's in the cloud”, and “I can tell who my friends are based on common knowledge within my circles of their unique name which is easy to remember and meaningful” are all things that heavily constrain what you can do “on the inside”.

Mastodon has meanwhile managed to either do something right or get lucky wrt the path dependency of building structures where prosocial hosting behavior is convenient: a whole bunch of mostly-volunteer instances have sprung up, adopters have managed to make instance choice part of identity so that the domain-part isn't just a “meaningless extra thing to remember”, and federation remains reasonably strong; meanwhile, financial support for server costs has mostly leant toward the Patreon model, allowing a fraction of generous users to help support a bunch of free riders while not having to directly participate in administration. At the same time, despite Mastodon having almost exactly copied Twitter's model in terms of available user interactions, the zeitgeist has repeatedly suggested that users getting on board for the first time often had no idea what instances even could be, and had to have the very concept explained several different ways before it got real traction. Random instance death is also a problem that's tempering the mood nowadays, because keeping the server up requires enough motivation which sometimes runs out, and some instances have started having problems with media storage requirements, which, see above (though I'm told the internal architecture could use some optimization too).

There's something deeper in here surrounding the thorough conflation of type with instance in the popular side of the digital world; I feel as though something critical to the more literate concept of this didn't make it into the default folk model, such that only centralized services are legible. I have some hope that Mastodon and related ActivityPub-based federated services absorbing waves of people fleeing the abusive behavior of major social media (such as the recent Tumblr exodus) will make a dent in this and cause the appropriate concepts to reach critical cultural density.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not at all how argumentation works :-) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18886753

That's exactly how argumentation works...

You’re confusing argumentation with perception.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#153
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the fact that most people would look unfavorably on yet another box in their homes, how does any of this help you avoid the blocking and tracking of the ISP? Your ISP will still know what you are doing, and will have the ability to block you from doing it should the need arise. I also feel like people are proposing solutions based on technologies as they stand today. Chosen solutions to the decentraliza…

> Setting aside the fact that most people would look unfavorably on yet another box in their homes, how does any of this help you avoid the blocking and tracking of the ISP? Meh, don't need another box, just keep the family desktop on. But even without that, there is still value. The ISP tracking isn't much of an issue using an existing network like Tor. Software starts up, reads the locally encrypted Sqlite DB for y…

> Meh, don't need another box, just keep the family desktop on.

I literally do not know anyone who owns a desktop computer any more.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#154
post #131

Huh... > The situation becomes problematic when we are robbed of our choice, deceived into thinking there is only one access gate to a space that, in reality, we collectively own. Robbery - the action of taking property unlawfully from a person or place by force or threat of force. [0] Deceit - The action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth [1] That's what those words mean. The…

I don't think quoting the dictionary here makes you look especially smart. Are you railing against the use of "rob" with an intangible noun? Would you cry foul at phrases like "robbed of their dignity?" Do you ignore alternative definitions like "to deprive of something unjustly or injuriously?"[0] Do you believe that nobody involved in centralization conceals or misrepresents the truth? Does a marketer never oversta…

[deleted]

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#155
post #40

The web cannot be decentralized without putting an end to SSL. As long as certificate-issuers are the arbiters of commerce and browsers push users to trust unsecured websites more and more, malicious governments will be able to silence people by revoking their certs. There are stronger alternatives. We need to make a push to begin using them.

I'm not sure what stronger alternatives you're referring to. Can you elaborate or share any resources?

If, instead of identifying services by some human readable name, they are identified by their public keys, then we don't need certificates - there are several encrypted and authenticated transport protocols which only require knowledge of the destination's public key upfront.

You then need an alternative name system which links a unique human readable name to a public key. This is the tricker part (see Zooko's triangle), but there are some creative solutions like Namecoin and the Blockstack Name Service.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both DNS and TLS PKI (nothing uses SSL) are decentralized by design.

DNS at the root level is not decentralized. .com, .io, .net etc are centralized and even owned by for-profit companies.

Also DNSSEC requires a trusted root signature, I'd hardly consider that decentralized.

(But they have a key signing ceremony, so we can trust that it is secure.)

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#158
post #79

It puzzles me that the linked data future is still discussed, as if we didn't already try it, and didn't already discover that developers dislike arcane RDF standards and the academic-rooted designers of the specifications have a terrible track record of solving real-world problems. And that now they're presenting linked data as some critical component of the decentralized web while skipping out on the debates that e…

Not only now Linked Data + RDF is even simpler and nicer to learn: There are currently more libraries to work with. Also it is more critical than ever for many industries.

Current solution for several issues related with electronic health records concluded to create the new standard, to use RDF and linked data, which solved most of the issues on the previous standard. See FHIR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Healthcare_Interoperabili...

In fact, current linked data discussions seem to me that become relevant again because it is more clear now that we have been misusing/overusing/ bad REST, microservices architectures and GraphQL for some already analyzed and solved problems.

But, of course, for a single application which doesn't require interoperability, not requiring standardized data exchange formats, not requiring support for flexible data representation, Linked Data and RDF will be clearly unnecessary. But on time, the future of data interconnection plays on the side of Linked Data IMHO.

Until now, current attempts to create some Linked Data + RDF alternate infraestructures are more likely to create ad-hoc, informally specified, bug-ridden, slow implementations of Linked Data and RDF.

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#159
post #79

It puzzles me that the linked data future is still discussed, as if we didn't already try it, and didn't already discover that developers dislike arcane RDF standards and the academic-rooted designers of the specifications have a terrible track record of solving real-world problems. And that now they're presenting linked data as some critical component of the decentralized web while skipping out on the debates that e…

Not only now Linked Data + RDF is even simpler and nicer to learn: There are currently more libraries to work with. Also it is more critical than ever for many industries. Current solution for several issues related with electronic health records concluded to create the new standard, to use RDF and linked data, which solved most of the issues on the previous standard. See FHIR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Heal…

Is this a bot?

Re: Re-decentralizing the Web, for good this time

#160
post #128
post #79

It puzzles me that the linked data future is still discussed, as if we didn't already try it, and didn't already discover that developers dislike arcane RDF standards and the academic-rooted designers of the specifications have a terrible track record of solving real-world problems. And that now they're presenting linked data as some critical component of the decentralized web while skipping out on the debates that e…

You're right, there are a lot of academics that like the idea of a semantic web, it rings true to a lot of scientific principles. There are also a lot of ideas and far fewer day-to-day applications. Science ticks a long a lot slower than startup culture, however, so it's not suprising that a) understanding of the issues comes slower, but also b) some "experiments" that would utilize semantic data have not yet been fu…

Even more, we're already there: US ONC Health IT and HL7 are currently on the FHIR standard, which is slowly integrating linked data principles. E.g. currently uses JSON-LD: https://www.healthit.gov/buzz-blog/interoperability/heat-wav...
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