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Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

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Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#111
So right now we know the "what", but not the "why".

What Improbable really has, or claims to have, is a way to scale massively multiplayer games where everyone is in the same world. They have a back end which is basically a synching system for small data elements between computers in a data center. Think of it as being like the way a shared memory multiprocessor synchs its memory system. Some data items belong to a single CPU, and that CPU has read/write access to it. Anybody else can read, but they get updated if the data changes. Who has write ownership can change based on demand. Improbable has a downloadable demo if you want to play with this.

The game use of this is as a solution to the "region crossing" problem in Second Life. The big Second Life world is divided into squares 256m on a side, each managed by a separate process. The processes talk to each other, and objects can move across region boundaries. The system used is ad-hoc and fails frequently. If you drive around Second Life, about twice an hour you'll have serious trouble at a region crossing and may have to relog.

Improbable raised $500M, the largest investment ever made in a European tech startup.[1] They put 150 developers on the problem. They claim to have a solution. It's set up as a pay per use service. You pay for data storage, you pay for network traffic, and it has to run on Google's cloud. They don't publish prices, but at least one developer dumped them for cost reasons.

This is going to be like physics engines. In the 1990s it was really hard, and physics engines required heavy research into nonlinear differential equation solvers and fast collision detection. I used to work on that. There were startups with unicorn dreams - Mathengine, Havok. Now, everybody does it, and multiple open source libraries are available. Mathengine is gone, and Havok had a down round, downsized, replaced the management, and was sold twice. Physics is routine middleware now.

Right now, though, Improbable has the only system for this. Until someone else figures it out. This event pushed Improbable to open source their API code with the MIT license. That means anyone can now see how to talk to the back end, and start thinking about how to replace their back end. Progress marches on.

(Hm. What if you wrote a back end which, instead of needing multiple "cloud" machines, ran on a single huge Amazon AWS instance, like the one with 128 CPUs. That's an easier problem than coordinating it over the network. You might not be able to support a planet sized world, but you could support large islands you have to teleport between.)

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/10/british-gam...

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unity is not open source Important to note, neither is Unreal really. It's not a pedantic distinction here either, as it affects how far you can take a project that modifies the core engine. Not that I'm against Unreal in any way, it's just important to keep in mind.

Yes, UE4 is not FOSS as per GNU, it is open source in that you can see the code and there's a large community contributing fixes and additions with every new version. I think the distinction is pedantic for most users.

The Open Source Definition doesn't come from the Free Software Foundation or "GNU". It's a separate organization.[1].

Also the whole point of this story is that license terms do matter, especially if you want to sell games commercially.

[1] https://opensource.org/osd-annotated

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unity is not open source Important to note, neither is Unreal really. It's not a pedantic distinction here either, as it affects how far you can take a project that modifies the core engine. Not that I'm against Unreal in any way, it's just important to keep in mind.

Yes, UE4 is not FOSS as per GNU, it is open source in that you can see the code and there's a large community contributing fixes and additions with every new version. I think the distinction is pedantic for most users.

Unitys C# code is also visible source

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#114

Godot is a game engine licensed with the MIT license. Unity just proved that free != yours.

Godot is also behind the curve on content pipeline tools. I love it to death, but I would never be able to convince anyone outside hobbyists to use it because it has no goddamn FBX support, or an easy ECS framework.

Native FBX support is not compatible by license, you are free to make a module that lets Godot use FBX, just with a FBX compatible license.

Traditional ECS doesn't fit with Godot's philosophy, but you can make behaviors into nodes and just add these nodes as a child for ECS-like behavior. Honestly, I find Godot's way more natural and extendable.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#115

Just curious, how does the godot engine compare to Unity and UE4? Is it suitable for AAA studios or are there any major pieces missing?

It is not ready imo. Someone correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

Their custom scripting language is extremely slow to the point where I wouldn't consider using it.

You can use C#, but if you download the c# version you get a warning on startup which states that this version isnt production ready.

You can use C++, but I found the workflow here awkward, plus they just introduced it with 3.0. They are about to launch 3.1 but this includes breaking changes to the way you use c++, so if you were using it and wanted to upgrade you'd have to rewrite a portion of your code.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, UE4 is not FOSS as per GNU, it is open source in that you can see the code and there's a large community contributing fixes and additions with every new version. I think the distinction is pedantic for most users.

Unitys C# code is also visible source

I missed that announcement, good for them, too little too late: https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/03/26/releasing-the-unity-c-s...

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#117

So right now we know the "what", but not the "why". What Improbable really has, or claims to have, is a way to scale massively multiplayer games where everyone is in the same world. They have a back end which is basically a synching system for small data elements between computers in a data center. Think of it as being like the way a shared memory multiprocessor synchs its memory system. Some data items belong to a s…

Improbable doesn’t have planet scale solutions. Their most touted title, Worlds Adrift, is explicitly discretized into regions. They use ‘creative’ solutions like ‘impassable storms’ to prevent crowding.

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#118
post #37

> You may not directly or indirectly distribute the Unity Software, including the runtime portion of the Unity Software (the “Unity Runtime”), or your Project Content (if it incorporates the Unity Runtime) by means of streaming or broadcasting so that any portion of the Unity Software is primarily executed on or simulated by the cloud or a remote server and transmitted over the Internet or other network to end user d…

I think Unity has a much easier learning curve than Unreal. The other thing about Unreal is it’s really targeted towards triple A workflows, which is great if you’re triple A but a bit heavy if you’re not. They also have some IMO killer features that UE lacks, like humanoid animation retargeting. If you’ve ever done animation you probably realise how much time and effort it takes to make a good one, so being able to reuse animations can be huge. None of that is really a criticism of UE4 which is great, just, Unity has some attributes that make it really appealing to smaller shops.

[edit: derp meant this in response to a different comment but I think it still stands. Weird/possibly terrible move by Unity but I don’t know if UE4 is a realistic alternative for a lot of places. Surface level they seem similar but there are so many differences]

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#119

Just curious, how does the godot engine compare to Unity and UE4? Is it suitable for AAA studios or are there any major pieces missing?

We don't know yet if it is suitable for AAA studios yet, as no yet tried. But Unity itself for quite a long time was not suitable for AAA studios, and just quite recently AAA games using Unity popped up. I'd say that Godot has got the essentials, and most of what is missing is pretty easy to add yourself. Maybe the last thing that stops AAA studios from using Godot is that it still uses OpenGL ES 3.0 for rendering, but there is plans to use a new renderer based on Vulkan

Re: Unity Engine ToS change makes cloud-based SpatialOS games illegal

#120
post #37

> You may not directly or indirectly distribute the Unity Software, including the runtime portion of the Unity Software (the “Unity Runtime”), or your Project Content (if it incorporates the Unity Runtime) by means of streaming or broadcasting so that any portion of the Unity Software is primarily executed on or simulated by the cloud or a remote server and transmitted over the Internet or other network to end user d…

Doesn't Unreal require you to code in C++? That's a big reason why I'd avoid it when I don't require maximum performance.
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